JFC-3: Ping Pong

[pigswill]

Maybe we could trade for alphabet then see if there's a tech we could gift to Toku to please him enough to open borders so our WB could sneak around. I've noticed that once an AI agrees to open borders they tend to keep them open for a while. We could (though its less likely) manage to get some tech trades with Toku.
Once we've given that a go we can then revolt to HR and FR.

Khmer should be spawning fairly soon iirc. Any thoughts on how we respond to that (apart from cheap comments about his coiffure)?

Off topic: I' m playing Japan monarch RFC going for UHV. Got up to 1580 (and first landmark). Stability has been ok (stable, occasionally solid). Expanded southwards (Jakarta, Phillipines, two cities in Australia and one in New Zealand). Essentially running a Glight powered trade economy. Anything I should be watching out for in terms of stability?

 

[Jet]

Japanese trade routes would be great. I think they would count as intercontinental. He messed with the definition of continents for purposes of the Great Wall and maybe other things, but I don't think trade routes is one of them, since as the Maya I've seen Caribbean islands with the intercontinental bonus. On the other hand, I suspect (based on hazy memories and impressions from other games) that a tech gift probably wouldn't be enough, and that in practice only shared war or sustained Mercantilism would do it. And of course we'd lose the OB if he attacked.

One thing we can do for the Khmer is be in FR, since he starts with Buddhist missionaries and will hate us if we're heathen.

If you've been stable/solid in your game, I doubt there's much the game can do to you. But if you stop adding cities, you might, for the GNP checks, want to keep your existing cities on slow growth, such as by working cottages, and by working production tiles or specialists so that your population growth is not all front-loaded. Also, supposedly for the foreign culture condition

Spoiler :

the tiles have to be either unowned or 100% Japanese, so you may need to take measures to ensure that no Chinese or Independent culture is leaked in from Korea.

 

[mushyman]

Toku will not open borders any time soon. I don't know the exact cutoff but his has to be of the order of +8 or +9 or so. Basically we have to be in a mutual war to open borders with him.

Sury is slightly more amenable however, if we are in FR we should be able to tech gift and get OB which would be very useful. So I think immediate revolt is the plan. I am also in favour of the tech trade.

 

[pigswill]

Played three turns and pausing for advice:

T0. 600ad.
Rearranged tiles to increase commerce, went from 37 to 49 gpt.
Swopped Macau to an axe to boost power slightly.
Made the deal with Hammy:

Tried to bribe Toku:

Got +3 for the gift for a total of +6. Not enough to open borders. Made another deal with Toku: silk for 1gpt. We're about to lose common religion and we're low in power so try appeasement (of course it works: ask Neville Chamberlain).

Changed civics to HR and FR:

Watched us go into anarchy then hit return.

T1. 1610.
We're not mad. We're just unstable:

We meet Christian Zara. Trade IW for aesthetics and alphabet. We've got iron near Beijing ( great surprise, that one).

T2. 1620.
Stability improves: still unstable but only -11 (-8 civix, -14 econ).
Mahabodhi bidl.
Beijing WB>market.

T3. 1630.
Stability still improving, now -9.
Macau axe>axe. Send axe to Beijing.
The Arabian civ emerges and Islam is founded.
The problem is that Zara is willing to trade techs but isn't willing to open borders. Our galley is stuck.
Do we try to bribe him to open borders (currency or construction)?
Do we turn tail and hope we don't get caught by Arabian culture.
Do we declare war and 'fight' our way through (hopefully not actual fighting)?

 

[Jet]

Hmm. Well, the contacts gained from going around might be limited, since Carthage has collapsed and the Mediterranean might be blocked by Spain, who probably won't want to open borders. Maybe to make future trades with Zara easier, we can leave the Galley to maintain contact with the middle east, and try to do Europe with a Spy or two. They do establish contacts just like other units, it's just a matter of hammers/upkeep/not getting caught.

 

[Quotey]

Goddamnit, sorry about the Toku thing, forgot about his little problem. Spies are pretty bad at the whole contact thing as they get caught- could we just build a chariot or two and send them north over the black sea to Europa?

 

[pigswill]

Ok. Galley will limp away tamely. Try to get a chariot going. How likely it is to survive barbs I'm not sure. Maybe try to send it via India.

 

[mushyman]

The trouble with chariots are that they could get killed by barbs (losing our free wins in the process), and will probably get stopped by Russia in any case - although if we're quick they might make it before Russia spawns. Germany is not too amenable to opening borders either though.

I think a couple of spies is probably the best call, despite their issues.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Toku NEVER opens borders unless you're at war with some other civ with him, even if you have the same religion, he's pleased with you and you have a peace treaty. And all this is in monarch, so emperor is impossible. You just gave him a good tech for wonders.

 

[Lone Wolf]

He does open borders at Friendly, I think.

 

[pigswill]

The Rest of the Set.

640ad. Galley heads north by east. Not much else happens.

650ad. Not much happens this turn either. Got a few workers heading towards jungle city. We're now 'shaky' not 'unstable': the wonders of modern psychiatry. -3 (-14 economy).

660ad. Hinduism spreads to Macau. Some nice people are spotted in the jungle. We're still shaky at -9 (-21 economy, why? We're working more commerce than the start of the set).

670ad. They're not just nice people, they're Khmery nice people: Here, have some free sailing lessons:

Say: You teach us monotheism and we'll teach you alphabet and aesthetics (coz we like giving away techs that lead to world wonders). It's a deal. They like our trading (+4), but think that Mandalay's a bit too neighbourly (-1 close borders). They won't open borders. Hmmm. Mind you, they're not Buddhist yet.

680ad. This is dull. No Buddhist pals, no open borders, economy deteriorating for no obvious reason. Lots of barbs admiring the wall though.

690ad. Something happens! Hangzhou completes its granary and starts a confu monastery.

700ad. We've learned Code of Laws! Sury is neither buddhist or particularly sociable. We're getting close to unstable (-14, with a tasty -26 for economy).

On the other hand all our cities are a bit bigger and working a few more tiles. No-one's tried killing us yet (just as well, we're paying unit maintenance on a grand army of six axes and a galley).

A riddle wrapped in a mystery and tied up in a conundrum.

 

[Jet]

Why did you accept Monotheism?

 

[Quotey]

Whoah how did we get to -26? We were at -8 during my set.

 

[pigswill]

Monotheism is bound to come in useful for something (prereq for DR for vice-royalty should we survive long enough to get vassals?). We've traded alph and aesthetics to everyone else. If we hadn't traded then Sury would have just traded with someone else. At the rate we're researching we'll have plenty of time for WFYAABTA to wear off between techs.

I have no idea what happened to the economy. We're pulling in more commerce from tiles than the start of the set. We've still got some trade routes with India. Cities have got bigger so maintenance has probably gone up a bit

 

[Jet]

Monotheism is bound to come in useful for something

Well, Paper and DR, but I think Theology and DR are very weak for us compared to other techs. For the Paper prereq we'd have to make an expensive trade for Theology and we'd have to do it soon. For DR likewise, but with the additional cost of DR itself, and we'll be too weak to get a lot of vassals. There's an outside chance of getting some by joining wars, but I think that would be unlikely to pay off, especially if you include the cost of DR.

If we hadn't traded then Sury would have just traded with someone else.

But not for free and not right away. Right now his only trade tech is MC. Since he can't grow that fast, he'll stay relatively backwards for a while. I believe skipping the Mono trade would have given us a much better chance to trade for something better later. If not for Alpha and Aesthetics, then for the next tier after that.

I think there's a place in this game for lopsided trades, but I think there's also a place for holding back.

Whoah how did we get to -26?

Don't know, but another factor is inflation, currently 7 GPT.

 

[mushyman]

Ok, got it.

I've taken a quick look at the save - I don't have any overall plan. Civil Service seems ok if we're going to switch to Bureaucracy, but I don't think it's too useful otherwise and I'm not sure we can spare the stability. Although it is on the route to Paper.... any thoughts?

Economy.... hoo boy, that is crippling
FWIW, Quotey ended his set on -15 Economy and inflation was at just 4 GPT, but dropping 11 stability points in one turnset, when our cities have been growing, seems very out of sorts.

Temple of Kukulkan is available - worth a shot? I say yes.

I do intend to build a spy or two and try and scope out Europe through India (unless a chariot was built and I missed it - I'll make sure I check).

 

[Jet]

Some facts for reference. Rough tech costs:

Spoiler :

Drama 1100
CS 3000
Philo 3000
Paper 2200
MC+Machinery 4400
PP+Constitution 12500
Feudalism 2200 (including the prereq discount that it would give to CS)
Education+Liberalism 10700

Stability from buildings:

Spoiler :

Palace: -15
Summer Palace, Forbidden Palace: +5
other world and national wonders: +1
Courthouses: +1 if your stability is less than 0 and the city doesn't already have the Palace, Summer Palace, or Forbidden Palace
I'm pretty sure that Temples, Monasteries, cathedrals, shrines, Levies, Intelligence Agencies, and Security Bureaus are treated the same as Courthouses, and that it's a bug.
Jails: if your stability is less than 20, then either +1, or +2 if you're in Police State

Vassalage and Bureau:

Spoiler :

anarchy: -3 permanent
Vassalage: +3 during medieval, -3 during other eras
Bureau: +5, -1 per city over 5, max penalty -7 (12 cities)
Bureau: +4 with Rep
Rep: +6, -2 per city, max penalty -7 (6 cities)

Vassalage or Bureaucracy would help our economy a bit.

I wouldn't attempt the Temple because we don't have Stone, the benefit isn't great, and it's only one point of stability.

I suggest we try to race for either Constitution or Liberalism, with side stops to pick up Longbows or Macemen for Mongolia, and other opportune trade techs.

I'm slightly in favor of Liberalism. I'd suggest Feudalism, Archery, CS, Paper, Education, Liberalism. With bulbs and backtrading we might even get Constitution from it. Obviously this path would entail working scientists over cottages. It would go pretty well with Vassalage.

 

[mushyman]

A short set to line up the turn numbers, and no pics I'm afraid - it was pretty uneventful anyway.

Turn 0: First of all, stability check. We are at -14 overall, with (3,-8,-26,10,1) in the five categories. Decide to go for the Feudalism plan for now, but it's not a big deal since I don't go above 0% science this set.

One other point though - the Gold next to Mandalay has a fort on it, which is being turned to a mine. What happened there??

Turn 1: Uneventful.
Overall stability is up 1 to -13 for no obvious reason.

Turn 2: Marketplace finishes in Beijing - I start on a spy for the European adventure.
Stability is back down three to -16. Cities drops to 2, Economy to -29.

Turn 3: Spain spawns. A Christian AP is BIADL. The workboat reaches the crabs - presumably this was for the health? I improve it, but we might lose it to Khmer culture, which is pretty close.

Turn 4: Spy built in Beijing. Confucian Monastery next, in part because if Jet is right it should help our stability.
Stability is up to -15 (+1), Economy is at -28 (+1).

Turn 5: The Egyptian Civilisation is destroyed! Slightly surprised they've lasted this long to be honest
Stability crashes back down to -17 (-2), Economy to -30 (-2).

Turn 6: France spawns.

Turn 7: Macau finishes its Market, and starts on a Confu Monastery. Mandalay finishes its Granary, starts on a Library.

Turn 8: Beijing finishes its Monastery and starts on a second. Hangzhou finishes its Monastery and starts on a Temple.
Overall stability holds, but Cities is up to 3 (+1), Economy down to -31 (-1).

Turn 9: Library finishes in Hancheng. I start it on a Granary but this can be changed.

And that's it. I left the cities to manage themselves this round, but I think in the next turn or two we should hire as many scientists as possible and start up on the research again. It might be worth starting a settler or two to get some of our other city sites started.

One final point on inflation. This round we started at 7 and finished at 12. Is this to do with our slider technique? I'm not sure we can take these increases for long, but I've no idea if we can really do anything about it.

 

[say1988]

For your stability increases with no reason, I believe that there is a gradual movement to 0. You get a point in that direction every so many turns.

 

[LukeUeda-Sarson]

Regarding intercontinental trades, I noticed in a recent Russian game that there seems to be a continental divide running through mid-Siberia (and not the Urals where pedrhaps one might expect one), as I was getting an intercontinetal bonus to the westernmeost of my 3 Siberian cities, but not the nearer two. So I wouldn't make too many assumptions regrding them...

Cheers, Luke