Let's expel Poland from the EU!

Something much bigger and much more important than Portugal

Just because a country is bigger than another country does not make it more important, Russia is bigger than the USA is it more important? Plus, Portugal discovered half the world - what did you guys do that was so important?

Oh, and don't give me that crap about holding of the soviets; BIG WHOOP!
 
I would rather Poland would remain in the Eu union but with no Veto powers . So now it can't act as a thorn against Eu appeals for creating a strong and independent Union.
 
Just because a country is bigger than another country does not make it more important, Russia is bigger than the USA is it more important? Plus, Portugal discovered half the world - what did you guys do that was so important?

Oh, and don't give me that crap about holding of the soviets; BIG WHOOP!
History doesnt make a country important either. :mischief:
 
Is Portugal more important than USA?
 
More powerful, not more important.

power leads to importance.

For example in the game of civ, you are a very small empire with let's say 4 good production cities. You get out a huge amount of units, and have the most advanced, powerful, numerous army in the world. Does that maek you an important nation despite your smallness? I think so.

Besides you can always use all those units to become a bigger civ... So i think other civs would be watching your back
 
The really scary thing is that the "evil twins" have a real chance of winning the nest elections and remaining in power. The collapse of civilization in most of the former soviet block is now producing its results also in Poland.

Those insane politicians (dozens of parliamentarians recently tried to have Jesus Christ appointed as king of Poland) mirror what has happened in Russia. Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, the Baltic dwarfs, Serbia,... they all lacked a real democratic tradition (and many even a national identity) prior to their inclusion into the soviet block. Once the soviet-style regimes fell they went through a period of ideological vacuum (just as Russia did). Some of the members of the former ruling elite recycled themselves and took over both power and wealth. A few years later they had dismantled much of the economy and society without really creating anything to replace it with. The field was then open for those appealing to pre-communist ideas - which in central european states were forms of fascism or, more accurately, authoritarianism.

Both the Kaczynski and Putin appealed to the same ideas and, if they manage to remain in power, they will produce the same results locally. With one big difference: the russians know what they are doing: reinstating an Europe made up of nation-states where Russia will be the largest one - that is the russian strategy. Meanwhile the central europenas have been deluded by their own politicians into also believing the old ideas of nationalist - most of them still do not understand their countries lack the power to survive as independent nations in the modern world.

Caught up in the middle of this, trying to avoid disaster in central europe but unable to intervene openly lest that act supplies ammunition to the nationalists, are the EU bureaucrats and most western european politicians. The EU can only offer subsidies to keep central europeans interested in the EU - but as those subsidies will be managed by local politicians the end result may well be the opposite.
Some western politicians are no doubt happy to undermine the EU - and Central Europe has once again presented itself as a usefull token in a power game. Someday the others may decide tho cut the losses, drop part of Central Europe, and move forward with a reduced version of the EU. The future of Europe is very murky. A lot depends on how power straggles will resolve in those central europenn countries, and that depends on how prosperous, economically, the next few years will be. Not just in Central Europe, but in the world.
 
Great analysis innonimatu. I totally agree.

The problem with Poland's current government, lead by the evil twins, is that they forget what the EU stands for. It's about democracy, liberty and many of such things. Freedom of speach, religion, sexual orientation, name it. If they don't like that, then get the h*ll out of the union.

Some of the members of the former ruling elite recycled themselves and took over both power and wealth.

A thing commonly seen in democratising states. Old elites usually have no interest in democracy, but since the game is changing, they use nationalist strategies to stay in power. Political oponents are of course traitors, since they are not doing enough for their country. Politics might actually lead to a nationalist bidding war... I'd be interested in the links between the old elite and the press.

Meanwhile the central europenas have been deluded by their own politicians into also believing the old ideas of nationalist - most of them still do not understand their countries lack the power to survive as independent nations in the modern world.

And it's pretty damn frustrating to see so many of those people around me, including big parts of my family. All too damn proud of something so fictional as a nation. I for one think it's pretty sad if your personal identity and you feeling confident depends so much on a country. Like people outside your country aren't people...

Someday the others may decide tho cut the losses, drop part of Central Europe, and move forward with a reduced version of the EU.

Seems to be the smart solution for now. In my opinion it was way to soon for 95% of the Eastern-European countries to join. A partnership of some kind would've been better.
 
God yes.

Not a sound comes out of Poland without me thinking "Lord what have we let ourselves in for?!" I can completely understand the level of Polish emigration...
 
The really scary thing is that the "evil twins" have a real chance of winning the nest elections and remaining in power. The collapse of civilization in most of the former soviet block is now producing its results also in Poland.

Those insane politicians (dozens of parliamentarians recently tried to have Jesus Christ appointed as king of Poland) mirror what has happened in Russia. Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, the Baltic dwarfs, Serbia,... they all lacked a real democratic tradition (and many even a national identity) prior to their inclusion into the soviet block. Once the soviet-style regimes fell they went through a period of ideological vacuum (just as Russia did). Some of the members of the former ruling elite recycled themselves and took over both power and wealth. A few years later they had dismantled much of the economy and society without really creating anything to replace it with. The field was then open for those appealing to pre-communist ideas - which in central european states were forms of fascism or, more accurately, authoritarianism.

Both the Kaczynski and Putin appealed to the same ideas and, if they manage to remain in power, they will produce the same results locally. With one big difference: the russians know what they are doing: reinstating an Europe made up of nation-states where Russia will be the largest one - that is the russian strategy. Meanwhile the central europenas have been deluded by their own politicians into also believing the old ideas of nationalist - most of them still do not understand their countries lack the power to survive as independent nations in the modern world.

Caught up in the middle of this, trying to avoid disaster in central europe but unable to intervene openly lest that act supplies ammunition to the nationalists, are the EU bureaucrats and most western european politicians. The EU can only offer subsidies to keep central europeans interested in the EU - but as those subsidies will be managed by local politicians the end result may well be the opposite.
Some western politicians are no doubt happy to undermine the EU - and Central Europe has once again presented itself as a usefull token in a power game. Someday the others may decide tho cut the losses, drop part of Central Europe, and move forward with a reduced version of the EU. The future of Europe is very murky. A lot depends on how power straggles will resolve in those central europenn countries, and that depends on how prosperous, economically, the next few years will be. Not just in Central Europe, but in the world.

This is an incredibly arrogant post. Your only excuse is that you correctly excluded my country from it ;)

Now seriously.

1) There could hardly be a collapse of civilization after the fall of Communism, because that would necessarily imply that there had been a civilization before. Communist dictatorships cannot be called a civilization. The only thing they did was that they kept order for some time. Otherwise, they completely ruined the countries.

2) Some of the countries lacked a democratic tradition, that's true. Except Czechoslovakia, none of them had a stable liberal democracy for any reasonable period of time before WW2. On the other hand, this doesn't in any way means that they can't evolve into a true, modern democracy. Finland, Spain, Portugal or Greece hadn't any real democratic experience either, but they easily transformed into a democracy after their authoritatian governments collapsed.

As you can see, the Baltic states are doing extremely well, Hungary, the Czech Rep. and now even Slovakia too, with Balkan countries stabilizing. Poland is nothing really exceptional (yes, they're annoying sometimes). You attribute everything bad to some sort of an inherent Central and Eastern European inability to live in a democracy (which itself is a borderline racist opinion), while you tacitly ignore, that Western European countries had such problems too (Haider in Austria, far-right parties in the Low Countries and Italy etc.). The difference is that CE and EE countries had to face a completely wrecked economies, social inbalances, poverty, rise of nationalism and so on, which have made these problems somewhat worse.

3) If Russians know what they're doing, then Poland knows that too. Of course you're wrong. Russia tries to do what it is used to do - expand into Europe. Collapse of its empire in 1991 is seen as a tragedy in Russia, so they're trying to regain their influence.

But there is one peculiarity about the Russian nationalism - it has always been the bad form of nationalism - it is chauvinism, "Russia first, Russia über alles" type. Nothing close to the liberal form of nationalism which formed the European nation states (no, I am not trying to say that Europe didn't suffer of this "bad" nationalism too). Russians believe that for the sake of the Motherland, they were given a right to conquer and subjugate the weaker nations in their neighborhood. Just look at their history, perhaps then you'll understand why is it not acceptable for the Central and Eastern European nations.

Given the immensely (and for an average Western European probably incomprehensibly) negative experience with the Russian nationalism that almost every post-communist country has, it is no wonder they tend to react strongly on the signs that the beast is wakening again. And yes, they expect a support from the Western Europe, which has let them down many times. Maybe now is the right time to make things right and support those who know what they're talking about.
 
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