Let's Read the Bible Once

[_random_]

Read it, skipping the begat begat begat baguette crap. Then read all of Erhman's commentary on it. Was far more fun to realize just how hard you have to work to maintain the bible is inerrant and that holds no contradictions -- basically you have to not read it with an eye more critical than a child's.

On the other hand, seeing the mind games intelligent people play to claim the Bible is completely consistent can be pretty fascinating. Like the whole "Judas hung himself and then the rope snapped and he got disemboweled." thing. And it gets better/weirder.

What flavor of Christian are you, Kat?

 

[classical_hero]

Then there is Genesis 6:19-20:

19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

Which comes first, 6 or 7? Obviously 6 comes first and in chapter 7 God gives further clarification between clean and unclean animals which was not made earlier.

This sort of objection unfortunately typical of many atheist where they looking at such simple things as if it were a contradiction, when it is clearly not.

 

[JollyRoger]

In reality, it could very well be an overlay from two different sources coupled with sloppy editing. Same goes for the two versions of creation.

http://www.livius.org/fa-fn/flood/flood1.html

 

[Kaitzilla]

On the other hand, seeing the mind games intelligent people play to claim the Bible is completely consistent can be pretty fascinating. Like the whole "Judas hung himself and then the rope snapped and he got disemboweled." thing. And it gets better/weirder.

What flavor of Christian are you, Kat?

A not very good Catholic.

Indeed, I rather enjoy arguing with those who count the dates and years in the Bible and say the Earth is 6000 years old. Was the day much longer before heaven and earth were separated? Did the immortal Adam and Eve spend 4 billion years in the Garden before eating the forbidden fruit and becoming mortal?

 

[_random_]

If you like the poetic and somewhat antiquated quality of the KJV and you want to be a better Catholic, you should look into getting a Douhay-Reims. It was initially translated around the same time and was later revised to be pretty similar to it, but it's on the Vatican's whitelist of approved English translations.

 

[timtofly]

Ya I can't figure out if I'm confusing myself or not.

Genesis Chapter 7 Verse 2 and 3:

2) Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
3) Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

And the clean beasts and clean fowl got taken of for cooked offerings, so either 2 pair became 1 pair or 1 male got taken and left 1 male and 2 females or maybe there really were 7 pairs of the clean ones.

Archaic language heh. Maybe that lego Bible has an illustration. Hopefully no dinosaurs waving goodbye.

Youngs literal:

2 of all the clean beasts thou dost take to thee seven pairs, a male and its female; and of the beasts which are not clean two, a male and its female

Complete Jewish Bible:

2 Of every clean animal you are to take seven couples, and of the animals that are not clean, one couple

When the KJV says by sevens it simply meant seven of each gender. When it said two it just meant one of each gender. There is a little english trick called adding an s which makes the first group plural, and the second group is only singular since there is no s added to the word two. There were 14 of each clean animal and only 2 of the unclean.

 

[Gucumatz]

Whatever happened to the Ark of the Covenant anyway?

According to the Ethiopians, Queen Sheba had a son with Solomon named Menelik. Menelik grew up not knowing his father outside of stories and one day convinced his mother to allow him to travel to Jerusalem to visit his father. He visited Jerusalem and Solomon was overjoyed at the discovery of a Royal son, so much so that one son from every noble family in the kingdom was pledged to his son along with the first sons of the temple priests.

Solomon tried to convince Menelik to stay with him after a few years through both knowledge, power, and money - but Menelik wanted to return back to his homeland. The sons of the nobles and priests began to miss their homeland, so they conspired with one another to bring the Ark of the Covenant with them to their new land in Ethiopia. As they were the children of the most powerful men in the country and including guardians of the Ark, they had little trouble hiding it away on the night Menelik was to leave and the Ethiopian caravan marched out peacefully along with the Ark.

Of course there are other stories of what happened to the Ark, but I always think the Kebra Nagast tale is fascinating enough (although I simplified it, Menelik supposedly had a part in the organization of the seizure of the ark)

 

[Grendeldef]

Chapter 4 - Cain and Abel were born from Adam and Eve. They brought offerings of crops and sheep as offerings to God, but God only respected the sheep. Cain killed Abel over jealousy? and was cursed to never get another crop out of the ground no matter how hard he tried? Cain wandered to another land and met his wife and had a long list of descendants.

Where did the wife come from?

I've read the Bible but before '92 when the Finnish version was retranslated to update the language - previous version was from early 30s. The stage names for various characters are different in English than in Finnish so I started rereading it in English this time to ease the pain of who are we talking about this time. I was also interested in founding out which part of the Bible people are hanging on to when they oppose abortion.
Like Kaitzilla these seemingly unborn wives were the first point where I got stuck. Logic, consistency & stuff like really weren't highly appreciated by the authors of the Bible and therefore JollyRoger's approach seems exceptionally good one to read it as a whole.

You do realise that the ark is a perfect shipping container and it is very stable in rough waters, which is why now many ships have very similar dimensions to it to make it sea worthy.

Noah & Sons Ltd must've been bunch of exceptional carpenters by any measure and moreover the wood they used apparently was superior to the later timber. From purely engineering pov a wooden ship by those measures in implausible especially if it's suppose to float with cargo.

But more than anything the story of Noah to me isn't a wonderful survival story to be praised but an extremely sad case of what happens when a genocidal maniac has his way. Not that it's a rare event when this particular god shows his bad temper but still a rather extreme expression of hate. Kill everyone but 8 people in the world ? Nobody else has ever come even close to this. Sinners ? All of them ? Kids, too ?
I accept that it's hard to get the specific reasons for their convictions but still this seems a bit over the top solution. And what about all those animals unlucky enough to be left out - if this was carried out these days I think PETA for one would strongly disapprove.

After the flood one would expect good & decent things to happen but no, Noah the Good Guy starts by growing some wine, obviously gets stoned right away - a serious flaw in leadership I think. Is then seen naked but whether it's full monty or just PG-13 is unknown due to the bad narrative but to use this as a reason to demote the unfortunate viewer, his son, to a slave doesn't seem like an action of an exceptionally good man. It's quite the opposite but it follows the line thinking of his boss who really seems fulfilling the description of pure evil better than anyone else in this book.

Happy reading.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Yep. If God exists, I hope he has a good excuse.

 

[Fastrada]

I've tried reading it. The creation myth was just ridiculous. The story of Noah's ark was simply stupid. Then I got to a part where it was telling about a man who lived for over 900 years. I stopped there. Poor storytelling and ridiculous stories. Bunch of rubbish that book is.

ever heard of magical realism?

 

[Kaitzilla]

If you like the poetic and somewhat antiquated quality of the KJV and you want to be a better Catholic, you should look into getting a Douhay-Reims. It was initially translated around the same time and was later revised to be pretty similar to it, but it's on the Vatican's whitelist of approved English translations.

Thanks for the advice

Youngs literal:

2 of all the clean beasts thou dost take to thee seven pairs, a male and its female; and of the beasts which are not clean two, a male and its female

Complete Jewish Bible:

2 Of every clean animal you are to take seven couples, and of the animals that are not clean, one couple

When the KJV says by sevens it simply meant seven of each gender. When it said two it just meant one of each gender. There is a little english trick called adding an s which makes the first group plural, and the second group is only singular since there is no s added to the word two. There were 14 of each clean animal and only 2 of the unclean.

Ah! That makes sense, thank you. Hopefully it will be explained the difference between clean and unclean soon.

According to the Ethiopians, Queen Sheba had a son with Solomon named Menelik. Menelik grew up not knowing his father outside of stories and one day convinced his mother to allow him to travel to Jerusalem to visit his father. He visited Jerusalem and Solomon was overjoyed at the discovery of a Royal son, so much so that one son from every noble family in the kingdom was pledged to his son along with the first sons of the temple priests.

Solomon tried to convince Menelik to stay with him after a few years through both knowledge, power, and money - but Menelik wanted to return back to his homeland. The sons of the nobles and priests began to miss their homeland, so they conspired with one another to bring the Ark of the Covenant with them to their new land in Ethiopia. As they were the children of the most powerful men in the country and including guardians of the Ark, they had little trouble hiding it away on the night Menelik was to leave and the Ethiopian caravan marched out peacefully along with the Ark.

Of course there are other stories of what happened to the Ark, but I always think the Kebra Nagast tale is fascinating enough (although I simplified it, Menelik supposedly had a part in the organization of the seizure of the ark)

I had heard of Sheba and Solomon, but weren't sure who they were. I imagine Solomon was less than pleased with his favored son sneaking away with the Ark.

I've read the Bible but before '92 when the Finnish version was retranslated to update the language - previous version was from early 30s. The stage names for various characters are different in English than in Finnish so I started rereading it in English this time to ease the pain of who are we talking about this time. I was also interesting in founding out which part of the Bible people are hanging on to when they oppose abortion.
Like Kaitzilla these seemingly unborn wives were the first point where I got stuck. Logic, consistency & stuff like really weren't highly appreciated by the authors of the Bible and therefore JollyRoger's approach seems exceptionally good one to read it as a whole.



Noah & Sons Ltd must've been bunch of exceptional carpenters by any measure and moreover the wood they used apparently was superior to the later timber. From purely engineering pov a wooden ship by those measures in implausible especially if it's suppose to float with cargo.

But more than anything the story of Noah to me isn't a wonderful survival story to be praised but an extremely sad case of what happens when a genocidal maniac has his way. Not that it's a rare event when this particular god shows his bad temper but still a rather extreme expression of hate. Kill everyone but 8 people in the world ? Nobody else has ever come even close to this. Sinners ? All of them ? Kids, too ?
I accept that it's hard to get the specific reasons for their convictions but still this seems a bit over the top solution. And what about all those animals unlucky enough to be left out - if this was carried out these days I think PETA for one would strongly disapprove.

After the flood one would expect good & decent things to happen but no, Noah the Good Guy starts by growing some wine, obviously gets stoned right away - a serious flaw in leadership I think. Is then seen naked but whether it's full monty or just PG-13 is unknown due to the bad narrative but to use this as a reason to demote the unfortunate viewer, his son, to a slave doesn't seem like an action of an exceptionally good man. It's quite the opposite but it follows the line thinking of his boss who really seems fulfilling the description of pure evil better than anyone else in this book.

Happy reading.

It is interesting to read the dates and add the numbers. Adam died 256 years before The Flood (not Halo) killed everyone.

Noah's dad appears to have died 5 years before The Flood and Noah's grandpa Methusela died during The Flood.

I'd think PETA would object more to the ritual sacrifice than the flood killing animals. OTOH, I hear they kill 95% of the strays they acquire.

Can't really blame our creator for wanting to wipe us out knowing everything we do.
Thanks for the feedback.

 

[El_Machinae]

Methuselah died during the Flood, eh? He's famous for being the longest lived in the Bible, but it looks like his lifespan was still artificially restricted.

 

[Grendeldef]

Yup, I think PETA would oppose all sorts things there eliminating surplus by drowning only being one of them. Amnesty International and likes might have a few words to say as well.

Linear time line really wasn't high on priorities for the authors either but I've been wondering whether they screwed up the relationship between main the characters big time. I don't wanna spoil the end for anyone but when the assumed hero arrives on the scene in Act II he seems to be against everything what the protagonist in Act I does so perhaps they were not supposed to be on the same side at all - some sloppy editor just mixed it up.

There's of course the possibility that I don't remember everything correctly - it's been decades since I've read it and the only printed copy I have is a family heirloom from 1874 in Swedish and obviously printed in fraktur, not an optimal setup and I spend more than enough time with comps without reading uninteresting books with one.

 

[Eukaryote]

I just realized that I've read maybe 10% of arguably one of the most important books ever made even though it's my religion's holy book and I'm on track not to get it done by the time I'm dead.

According to the Vatican, 100,000 Christians are killed each year for their faith, and here I am slacking.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/0...000-christians-killed-annually-because-faith/


So! I'm making a thread to help me get it done by doing a small part each day and writing my thoughts/reactions down. You all can do so too if you want
There are 1189 short chapters in the Bible, so 5 a day should get this done within 8 months.


I've got a big red King James version, so I'll be using that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version
Or maybe one of the free audio books can read it to me if Google can find a decent one. Has someone paid Morgan Freeman to read it yet?
Regular people like Martin Luther reading the Bible kicked off the entire Protestant Reformation. I just want to get it read on principal as a life goal.

Good for you. It seems to me that the majority of Christians are ignorant enough of the Bible that to say "I believe in the Bible" is just hypocrisy. You are making the honest choice.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Day 3 - Genesis Chapter 11 to 15

Looks like tower of Babel and Abram+Lot.

Spoiler :

Chapter 11 - Everyone on Earth spoke one language.

The descendants of Noah wandered west into a plain in a land called Shinar and decided to start a city and build a tower to heaven.

God saw that they were capable of doing whatever they imagined and decided to break them up by confounding their language so that no one could understand one another.

Everyone ended up scattering across the Earth in frustration. The city/place was known as Babel before/after it ceased to exist.

Next, a list of descendants of Shem, one of Noah's 3 sons. (Shem, Ham, Japheth)
Apparently, Shem's great great great great great great grandson Terah had an important family.

Terah had 3 sons, Abram, Nahor, and Haran.

Abram had a wife named Sarai.
Nahor had a wife named Milcah who was his niece too. (Daughter of Haran, ugh)

Sarai was incapable of having kids , but Abram had a nephew named Lot at least. (Son of Haran, who also had a 3rd kid named Iscah)

One day some time after Haran died, Terah decided to take his son Abram, Sarai, and Lot with him from Ur to the land of the Canaanites (Canaan was son of Ham I think, Noah's son) (I'd leave Nahor behind too, ugh).

The 4 of them settled in Haran and didn't quite make it to Canaan (guess Terah liked that name a lot since he gave it to one of his sons. Or named the place after his dead son)


Chapter 12 - Probably before Terah died?, God told Abram to take Sarai and his nephew Lot and go start a new and great nation. He'd bless Abram and bless those who blessed him and cursed those who cursed him.

So the 3 of them left and entered Canaan finally and settled in Sichem. They built an altar to God and were told that the land was given to Abram's children (Isn't Sarai barren though?)

Next, Abram built a new altar on a mountain east of Bethel and decided to travel south through a famine stricken land into Egypt to sojourn (not sure what that is, maybe explore or vacation)

Before going into Egypt, Abram was worried that the Egyptians would see how very attractive his wife Sarai was and kill him so they could marry her instead. So he told her that they would pretend to be brother and sister.

Word spread as Abram feared and they were summoned before Pharaoh (leader of Egypt) so that Abram could be bribed to give his sister away to be married.

God took offense and plagued Pharoah and his house for trying to take Abram's wife. (Pharoah was gearing up for some adultery and coveting his neighbor's wife ^.^)
(Best not to dwell on what form the plague took)

Pharaoh was angry at the punishment from God and quickly discovered the deception. He questioned Abram about the deception and kicked them both out of Egypt.


Chapter 13 - Abram and Lot grew wealthy with vast herds of animals (probably not llamas), but the herds became too big and friction began to develop (grazing land?). Abram told Lot to settle in one direction so he could expand in the other. Lot chose to go east into the plains of Jordan (where Sodom and Gomorrah were located) and Abram chose to stay in the lands of Canaan.

God told Abram to gaze in every direction, and that all the land he could see from the mountain would be his and his descendants. And that there would be a great many of them. (Wife is still barren?)


Chapter 14 - There was a war! Apparently, if you ruled a city you were a King back then.

Chedorlaomer, King of Elam
Amraphel, King of Shinar
Arioch, King of Ellasar
Tidal, King of nations (huh?)

went to war against:

Bera, King of Sodom
Birsha, King of Gomorrah
Shinab, King of Admah
Shemeber, King of Zeboiim
Zoar, King of Belah

The 5 kings served Chedorlaomer for 12 years, but rebelled in the 13th year.

Chedorlaomer and the 3 kings with him evidently went on a rampage.

They killed the Rephaims in Ashteroth Karnaim, the Zuzims in Ham, and the Emims in Shaveh Kiriathaim.

They also slaughtered Horites, Amalekites, and Amorites.

Finally, they met the 5 kings in battle on the vale(valley?) of Siddim.
Apparently, they defeated them too.
The kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled to slime pits? and the other 3 kings retreated to a mountain.

Chedorlaomer and the 3 kings with him then took slaves from Sodom and Gomorrah along with all the goods inside the city. One of the slaves taken was Lot who was living in Sodom at the time.

Word reached Abram about his nephew's capture. He decided to get him back, and armed 318 servants for war (dang!) Then he chased the 4 kings down in the dark and attacked them all the way to Damascus. He killed them in the valley of Shaveh and got Lot and all the stuff back.

The King of Sodom and King Melchizedek of Salem came out to greet Abram and toasted him and his most high God with celebration. The King of Sodom asked for his people back and said Abram could keep the stuff. Abram declined to keep even the stuff, saying all he wanted was food for him and his men. (Where's the king of Gomorrah? His city got sacked pretty good too)


Chapter 15 - Abram and God have a conversation. Abram laments his lack of children and that his heir is Eliezer of Damascus who isn't even his kid.

God tells him to relax and that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars.

Abram is still uneasy and asks for a sign.

God gives it to him in a vision (or verbal dream?)

His descendants will be strangers in a strange land for 400 years, but will escape with great substance after God judges that land.

Later that day, God promises him even more land? from the River Egypt to the Euphrates. Canaan and 9 other lands.

 

[Gucumatz]

I had heard of Sheba and Solomon, but weren't sure who they were. I imagine Solomon was less than pleased with his favored son sneaking away with the Ark.

Yea I am sure he wasn't

Another interesting thing is the Ethiopians still claim to have the Ark of the Covenant too. There is a church in Ethiopia dedicated to its protection http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Our_Lady_Mary_of_Zion and an ancient order guards the ark. At any one time, there is a specific monk who is voted guardian of the Ark who lives out the rest of his life locked up in the chapel protecting it and only he may see it/move it/handle it until he dies and a new guardian is voted for life

Apparently its a pretty big pilgrimage site to see the entrance to the Ark of the covenant below:

 

[JollyRoger]

In breaking down the age references, Methusela died the year of the flood. The detail of Noah being directed to board the ark 7 days before the flood started may have been to allow for mourning. Some say that it shows God's mercy (of not killing him during the flood) and patience (holding off the flood for himk to die), but consider the sheer numbers God killrd just 1656 years into his experiment and that undercuts the mercy and patience arguments.

 

[timtofly]

When it comes to keeping laws how patient is a judge or how many choices can be made before a law has to be enforced? Even an ounce of mercy and patience does not undercut the concept. Only a lack thereof would nullify it's existence.

 

[JollyRoger]

I don't think an ounce or ton of either gives justification to wiping out nearly all life on an entire planet.

 

[timtofly]

That is a different justification. Why is God justified in creating laws in the first place? Has nothing to do with mercy or patience.