Looking at Luxuries (2-1 Version+)

[Txurce]

Desert start used to be good. With a river and the desert pantheon it was quite good. Beelining to Petra made sense. I guess it was nerfed because, as you say, desert sucks.

If I must give something to deserts, it would be +1 or +1, or both. (yes, faith, you'll need it if you want to work under such conditions, insolation causes allucinations....).

Simon del Desierto would agree with you. Me, too!

 

[Deadstarre]

I agree, thats why I started talking about incense, since is spawns on bare desert even on vanilla.

it also spawns on flood plains. flood plains are the great equalizer for crappy desert tiles- if there is no river, just consider it like a snow area and ignore it I think no matter how many goodies you see. Tons of Oil and Uranium spawns in the snow that I always want but i'm not about to make towns there to get it, and then wonder why my towns suck.

But in all honesty boosting desert and / or snow could only help the AI though, theyre the ones who don't know enough to ignore bad spots to settle. I bet I wouldnt be able to catch the AI on culture late game if they stopped kneecapping themselves with snow cities or worthless desert / tundra towns. if we want to improve AI, lets boost all the worthless terrain =) be a fun experiment

edit re: incense- having some incense in the desert isnt the end of the world, so long as they arent your starting ones. having your starting incense on flat desert is a no-go for me, and thats a situation I would just have to re-roll. Incense isn't the only luxury that can spawn on flat desert either, but theres no way to balance around this scenario, occasionally some starts are still going to suck; my idea was to just make it a whole lot less of them.

 

[tu_79]

it also spawns on flood plains. flood plains are the great equalizer for crappy desert tiles- if there is no river, just consider it like a snow area and ignore it I think no matter how many goodies you see. Tons of Oil and Uranium spawns in the snow that I always want but i'm not about to make towns there to get it, and then wonder why my towns suck.

But in all honesty boosting desert and / or snow could only help the AI though, theyre the ones who don't know enough to ignore bad spots to settle. I bet I wouldnt be able to catch the AI on culture late game if they stopped kneecapping themselves with snow cities or worthless desert / tundra towns. if we want to improve AI, lets boost all the worthless terrain =) be a fun experiment

Mmm.
Cold makes us more productive. Extra production on tundra and faith on desert? Without food, obviously.

 

[DarkZero]

it also spawns on flood plains. flood plains are the great equalizer for crappy desert tiles- if there is no river, just consider it like a snow area and ignore it I think no matter how many goodies you see. Tons of Oil and Uranium spawns in the snow that I always want but i'm not about to make towns there to get it, and then wonder why my towns suck.

But in all honesty boosting desert and / or snow could only help the AI though, theyre the ones who don't know enough to ignore bad spots to settle. I bet I wouldnt be able to catch the AI on culture late game if they stopped kneecapping themselves with snow cities or worthless desert / tundra towns. if we want to improve AI, lets boost all the worthless terrain =) be a fun experiment

edit re: incense- having some incense in the desert isnt the end of the world, so long as they arent your starting ones. having your starting incense on flat desert is a no-go for me, and thats a situation I would just have to re-roll. Incense isn't the only luxury that can spawn on flat desert either, but theres no way to balance around this scenario, occasionally some starts are still going to suck; my idea was to just make it a whole lot less of them.

But incense is a luxury you often have a monopoly if you play a desert bias civ, the mere fact that its monopoly add yields to the tiles shows how its one of those lots of copies luxury, unlike, say, marble or whales.

 

[Gazebo]

Mmm.
Cold makes us more productive. Extra production on tundra and faith on desert? Without food, obviously.

Says the guy living in sunny, pleasant Spain.

G

 

[Chandler]

Says the guy living in sunny, pleasant Spain.

G

Sadly, not all of Spain is sunny... *Cough!*North*Cough!*

 

[Deadstarre]

But incense is a luxury you often have a monopoly if you play a desert bias civ, the mere fact that its monopoly add yields to the tiles shows how its one of those lots of copies luxury, unlike, say, marble or whales.

that is a fantastic point. it would be better suited as a % mod monopoly (or GAL / HAP) for exactly that reason, I agree. When I made my list the goal was to change as little monopolies as possible, its why i only switched 2 of them, but youre making a great point.

 

[pza]

Other than the tundra pantheon that you are most likely picking if you have such a start?

but, what if two guys start in the tundra? one of them is gonna be screwed. I'm playing exclusively on hot maps right now, just to avoid crippled civs in my game and to avoid having to restart every second tundra start. even tundra hills and forests are useless!

 

[Deadstarre]

http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Cocoa_(Civ5) - this is just wrong though, and I'm trying to figure out why. it says Cocoa -only- spawns in the jungle but i'm playing standard vanilla maps and continually see Cocoa on forest. is VP currently altering any of the luxury starts? or is there some other explanation? all original documentation I can find of Cocoa points to it being jungle specific.

edit: answer, Yes, VP certainly does through moreluxuries.

Spoiler :

self.luxury_region_weights[1] = { -- Tundra
{self.fur_ID, 40},
{self.silver_ID, 40},
{self.amber_ID, 40},
{self.salt_ID, 40},
{self.gold_ID, 10},
{self.copper_ID, 10},
{self.gems_ID, 10},
{self.jade_ID, 10},
{self.lapis_ID, 10},
{self.whale_ID, 10},
{self.crab_ID, 10},
{self.pearls_ID, 10},
{self.coral_ID, 10}, };

self.luxury_region_weights[2] = { -- Jungle
{self.citrus_ID, 40},
{self.cocoa_ID, 40},
{self.spices_ID, 40},
{self.sugar_ID, 40},
{self.truffles_ID, 10},
{self.silk_ID, 10},
{self.dye_ID, 10},
{self.fur_ID, 10},
{self.whale_ID, 10},
{self.crab_ID, 10},
{self.pearls_ID, 10},
{self.coral_ID, 10}, };

self.luxury_region_weights[3] = { -- Forest
{self.truffles_ID, 40},
{self.silk_ID, 40},
{self.dye_ID, 40},
{self.fur_ID, 40},
{self.citrus_ID, 10},
{self.cocoa_ID, 10},
{self.spices_ID, 10},
{self.sugar_ID, 10},
{self.whale_ID, 10},
{self.crab_ID, 10},
{self.pearls_ID, 10},
{self.coral_ID, 10}, };

self.luxury_region_weights[4] = { -- Desert
{self.incense_ID, 40},
{self.salt_ID, 40},
{self.gold_ID, 40},
{self.lapis_ID, 40},
{self.copper_ID, 10},
{self.silver_ID, 10},
{self.amber_ID, 10},
{self.gems_ID, 10},
{self.jade_ID, 10},
{self.whale_ID, 10},
{self.crab_ID, 10},
{self.pearls_ID, 10},
{self.coral_ID, 10}, };

self.luxury_region_weights[5] = { -- Hills
{self.gold_ID, 30},
{self.silver_ID, 30},
{self.copper_ID, 30},
{self.gems_ID, 30},
{self.salt_ID, 30},
{self.jade_ID, 30},
{self.amber_ID, 30},
{self.lapis_ID, 30},
{self.whale_ID, 10},
{self.crab_ID, 10},
{self.pearls_ID, 10},
{self.coral_ID, 10}, };


self.luxury_region_weights[6] = { -- Plains
{self.incense_ID, 40},
{self.ivory_ID, 40},
{self.wine_ID, 40},
{self.olives_ID, 40},
{self.coffee_ID, 40},
{self.tobacco_ID, 10},
{self.tea_ID, 10},
{self.perfume_ID, 10},
{self.cotton_ID, 10},
{self.whale_ID, 10},
{self.crab_ID, 10},
{self.pearls_ID, 10},
{self.coral_ID, 10}, };

self.luxury_region_weights[7] = { -- Grass
{self.tobacco_ID, 40},
{self.tea_ID, 40},
{self.perfume_ID, 40},
{self.cotton_ID, 40},
{self.ivory_ID, 10},
{self.wine_ID, 10},
{self.olives_ID, 10},
{self.coffee_ID, 10},
{self.whale_ID, 10},
{self.crab_ID, 10},
{self.pearls_ID, 10},
{self.coral_ID, 10}, };

And there is more processing that goes on beyond that obviously, all very complicated stuff im sure but theres no question the end result is Cocoa on forests using VP. I hadnt specifically looked up every vanilla luxury rule when I made my list actually, I play enough to just go off general VP knowledge thankfully. So I guess my list really is for VP after all, not vanilla. Using vanilla maps really just means using a map that doesnt interfere with what moreluxuries does

@Ziad is communitas map loaded as a mod?

Spoiler :

Incompatible Map Scripts:
Amazon, Amazon Plus, Great Plains, Great Plains Plus, Boreal, Rainforest, Arborea, Frontier, Tilted Axis

Terra “is” compatible, as a tweaked version is included within this mod. The extra luxuries work really well with the larger-sized terra maps.

Please ensure that any other mods you use alongside this one aren't overriding AssignStartingPlots.lua (or any of its contents that I've modified, if it's a map script). The order in which you enable mods matters.

 

[ElliotS]

Perhaps, but there's no supported method to give terrains differing yields for resources/improvements. Best I could do would be a flat buff to desert tiles from a building, but it would affect all (a la Petra).

G

Theoretically couldn't you give a buff to flat desert tiles to every pantheon? Maybe make it unlock at tech X and mention it there. "Cities with a pantheon or religion gain +1/ on flat desert tiles"?

I don't think 2 pantheon desert Byzantium would become OP even if done this way.

 

[Gazebo]

Theoretically couldn't you give a buff to flat desert tiles to every pantheon? Maybe make it unlock at tech X and mention it there. "Cities with a pantheon or religion gain +1/ on flat desert tiles"?

I don't think 2 pantheon desert Byzantium would become OP even if done this way.

I hate clunk code. So no.

 

[tu_79]

Says the guy living in sunny, pleasant Spain.

G

Climate and level of development are closely related. The coldest part of our planet are not suitable for living, nor the hottest. The warm zone has plenty of food and can sustain a large population, while the cold zone is usually more developed. See South America, Africa and Australia: The more developed zones are the southern ones. It's like a mirror of the northern hemisphere. The more populated zones are between the tropics, the richier are beyond the tropics. It cannot be coincidence.
There are other variables to understand the level of development, like easiness of communications, historical reasons, resources availability, fresh water, ...

By the way, jungles are also a extreme terrain (see Brazilian or Vietnamese jungle tribes), but we changed it so jungles starts weren't doomed, gameplay wise. Tundra and desert were playable just for their related pantheons.

Playing as Inca, we learn that +1 science +1 faith on mountains, powerful as it sounds, it's nothing because you cannot work on those tiles. They don't provide any food. Their yields are too low to dedicate a worker and stop growing the city. They are not better than working a specialist slot. The tundra and desert pantheons made those locations good because they provided food, where there wasn't any. So, if tundra and desert were to give more yields, but none of them food, those locations would be less crap, but still not good.

Well, yes, Spain is sunny (not right now, it's snowing in almost the whole country). It's a little like your California. But also a bit dry. The north is cold and wet, though (Ask Txurce, he knows better how many sunny days they enjoy in Basque Country). The warm south is not as hot as the Caribbean can be. In summer, farmers need to rest at mid-day to avoid the hottest part of the day, but they manage to work their 8-10 hours per day (Well, those that can work, as unemployment is rampant now). Were it a bit hotter (and it seems it's going to be in a few years), and productivity would fall for sure.

 

[ElliotS]

I hate clunk code. So no.

If it unlocked on Theology it wouldn't be clunk code.

 

[pza]

Climate and level of development are closely related. The coldest part of our planet are not suitable for living, nor the hottest. The warm zone has plenty of food and can sustain a large population, while the cold zone is usually more developed. See South America, Africa and Australia: The more developed zones are the southern ones. It's like a mirror of the northern hemisphere. The more populated zones are between the tropics, the richier are beyond the tropics. It cannot be coincidence.
There are other variables to understand the level of development, like easiness of communications, historical reasons, resources availability, fresh water, ...

By the way, jungles are also a extreme terrain (see Brazilian or Vietnamese jungle tribes), but we changed it so jungles starts weren't doomed, gameplay wise. Tundra and desert were playable just for their related pantheons.

Playing as Inca, we learn that +1 science +1 faith on mountains, powerful as it sounds, it's nothing because you cannot work on those tiles. They don't provide any food. Their yields are too low to dedicate a worker and stop growing the city. They are not better than working a specialist slot. The tundra and desert pantheons made those locations good because they provided food, where there wasn't any. So, if tundra and desert were to give more yields, but none of them food, those locations would be less crap, but still not good.

Well, yes, Spain is sunny (not right now, it's snowing in almost the whole country). It's a little like your California. But also a bit dry. The north is cold and wet, though (Ask Txurce, he knows better how many sunny days they enjoy in Basque Country). The warm south is not as hot as the Caribbean can be. In summer, farmers need to rest at mid-day to avoid the hottest part of the day, but they manage to work their 8-10 hours per day (Well, those that can work, as unemployment is rampant now). Were it a bit hotter (and it seems it's going to be in a few years), and productivity would fall for sure.

sorry, but i fail to see your argument. what you say is that any tile that doesn't yield food is worse than food-rich tiles. that's simply not true.

of course, food is an important yield, especially in the early game. and i agree that incan mountains aren't the best yield wise, either, but that's not due to the lack of food. instead, i'll say that every yield is to an extent interchangable with another, and the sum of yields determine its power. well not exactly the sum, because not every yield is equal. also, this applies to cities that have the means to grow to a decent enough size, which is easily achievable in most of the cases, but sometimes at the cost of a trade route.
i'll use an example:


you could argue that the tile with the most food (pink) is the best. but it provides a total of 11 yields. in comparison, the tile with the most yields (red) has a good mix of everything. on the other hand, if you're going for culture victory, at this point of the game, it would probably the best to go for the cultural tile (black), although it only has 10 yields.

similarly, you could say, in the beginning of a game, in order to get a pantheon, a tile that provides faith is a better tile than one that provides the same or sometimes even more yields.

translated into maths that means:
TileValue=a*+b*+c*+d*+e*+f*+g*

so basically, any yield times a variable that depends on the overall importance, your current focus and the percentual increase of that yield in the city/in your empire.

that means:
you have a tile with 4, and one with 5
you should be going for the gold if the variable is at least 1.25 times higher than the variable for hammers. that relation of the variables could be made of the factors:
importance: .95 you can currently buy hammers with coins at a rate of about .95 hammers per coin (thats dependent on your situation and on your purchases)
focus: 1. you are currently reliant on these coins to afford buying hammers. you have no change in happiness if you use or don't use the gold tile.
percentual increase: you have a building with 20% increase of coins and a policy with another 20% increase, which as an example would add up to 25%.

c/b = 0.95*1*1.4=1.33 which is >1.25. therefore you should be using the gold tile. of course you don't need ot calculate this every time, but that's basically the maths behind the gut feeling one has when he says a yield is bad/overpowered.

from what i know the mayor of a city uses a similar yield evaluation process and whenever you set a focus on a yield he simply adds +X to that factor. i'm not sure he takes into account multiplication factors of policies or buildings or whatnot.

tl;dr: if you evaluate your needs, yields are interchangable. cities that lack food can most often get traderoutes for food.

edit: i forgot to mention that the evalutation method applies if happiness doesn't matter or doesn't change.
edit2: maths

 

[DarkZero]

There is no way gold is worth more than any other yield in the game, production is king, because the faster you can build things the more and the faster you can have of the other yields, food is queen, because you want lots of citizens to work those mines tho get more production, all the other yields are a result of the food and production dance.

 

[pza]

since gold is just a different form of production (in addition to combatting poverty), and the math still applies, it's still a worthwhile comparison. what you're following is your gut feeling, which is good, but it might mislead you in some circumstances.

 

[tu_79]

sorry, but i fail to see your argument. what you say is that any tile that doesn't yield food is worse than food-rich tiles. that's simply not true.

Have you ever had a city in a desert without flood plains? It does not matter how high the yields are, you simply have not enough people. After granaries, herbalists, and the rest food buildings you have, what? 10 food? This supports 5 workers, or 2-3 specialists.

You may think that if you have one tile with 5 food, then you can feed another worker that would work on those faith/production tiles. Yes, you can. Play Inca for a while. You have great food tiles with terrace farms. You have good yields in mountains. Having a great mountain chain would be heaven. But if you work the mountains, your growth is slowed too much. (Placing cities in mountains is great, though). You might be able to found your religion, but it has a cost.

Also, ElliotS is not asking for desert tiles to become overpowered, only workable. Currently it's difficult to work even on a mined iron if it is on a desert tile. Oil tiles can be ignored. We agree deserts should not give food (so desert cities are going to stay sadly small). Desert cannot be farmed without access to fresh water. You can use Tradition/Towns to salvage some of those tiles, but do you really want to focus on great merchants?

Last year, starting in a desert and picking spirit of the desert pantheon was a guaranteed strong start, it wasn't a difficult pantheon to pick either. But now food is scarcer, and the pantheon is weaker. So now, desert starts are worse than normal. Some say it's ok to have good and bad start locations. Some say all starts should be playable.

 

[ElliotS]

@Gazebo Can we change the base yields of flat desert tiles to +1?

That seems like the best solution. They'll still be 1 yield worse than all other tiles, but less awful. It will be more like Tundra.

Also I'm genuinely curious: How is the code from Pantheons so different you couldn't just copy-paste the flat desert tiles only function to a building? I'm not doubting you, just curious what type of code-spagetti Firaxis handed you.

 

[tu_79]

@Gazebo Can we change the base yields of flat desert tiles to +1?

That seems like the best solution. They'll still be 1 yield worse than all other tiles, but less awful. It will be more like Tundra.

Also I'm genuinely curious: How is the code from Pantheons so different you couldn't just copy-paste the flat desert tiles only function to a building? I'm not doubting you, just curious what type of code-spagetti Firaxis handed you.

I don't think food is fitting. +1 production may work too. Better than the nothingness it has now.

 

[Gazebo]

@Gazebo Can we change the base yields of flat desert tiles to +1?

That seems like the best solution. They'll still be 1 yield worse than all other tiles, but less awful. It will be more like Tundra.

Also I'm genuinely curious: How is the code from Pantheons so different you couldn't just copy-paste the flat desert tiles only function to a building? I'm not doubting you, just curious what type of code-spagetti Firaxis handed you.

They’re just 100% different function chains. It’s like an ice cream machine. Two or more ice creams may end up in your cone, but you can’t make vanilla come out of the chocolate pipe without a major reworking of the tubes inside.