Middle East on fire - Part XVII

[Leoreth]

Becoming a terrorist is not about "rebeling against injustice" (a laughable theory), it is about hate; it is about the impact that hateful rhetoric and a radicalized political environment have on susceptible people. Becoming a Hamas militant is a lot like becoming a brownshirt.

I can't think of many better reasons to develop an ingrained hatred against something other than repeated (perceived) injustice against you and the people close to you.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Ah, the inconvenient fact of the state of Israel having been founded by terrorists keeps coming up...

No, by glorious freedom fighters against the British imperialism!

 

[Borachio]

<nvm>

 

[luiz]

I think it is also about desperation, when one sees all other avenues closed to them, whether that perception is justified or not. No one becomes a terrorist because it's convenient. Really, who wants to blow themselves up just for fun, or become world pariahs?

Nobody becomes a terrorist for fun, but rather because they have been told since a young age that that's a glorious things to be, and (in the case of Islamic terrorists) have been promissed vast rewards in the after-life.

I can't think of many better reasons to develop an ingrained hatred against something other than repeated (perceived) injustice against you and the people close to you.

But the point here is that the injustice does not need to be real. What had the Jews done to the Germans to deserve all the hate in the 30's?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Nobody becomes a terrorist for fun, but rather because they have been told since a young age that that's a glorious things to be, and (in the case of Islamic terrorists) have been promissed vast rewards in the after-life.

That is certainly the case today in Gaza. But not every Palestinian terrorist was brainwashed as a child. Once, their terrorism consisted of hijacking planes and landing them in the desert, getting everyone off, and the blowing up the empty plane. While a shocking act, it's worlds away from a suicide bomber taking a bus to downtown Tel Aviv.

 

[Lone Wolf]

But the point here is that the injustice does not need to be real. What had the Jews done to the Germans to deserve all the hate in the 30's?

Indeed. That's why we need to evaluate anything on a case-by-case basis. There's certainly a lot of stuff Israel did to Palestinians to deserve hate.

Hamas is a nasty organization which doesn't deserve support. But Israel is largely responsible for Palestinian "radicalization" in the first place.

 

[Verbose]

Nobody becomes a terrorist for fun, but rather because they have been told since a young age that that's a glorious things to be, and (in the case of Islamic terrorists) have been promissed vast rewards in the after-life.

That helps.

What's also at hand for the Palestinians are some effing huge object lessons. Especially in Gaza.

This is not some kind of brain-in-a-wat response to mere words.

My morning paper carried a telephone interview with a Swedish-Palestinian woman from inside Gaza. In her words: "Kids here are not normal."

On Sunday my pubic service radio weekly political news magazine ran with a story from Sderot, about the traumatisation of Israeli children made to live with the constant threat of rockets. A very weary and sympathetic pschyiatrist working with these kids likened it to shovelling sand. Any progress made, along comes a rocket and it's all undone.

Well, that's bad. But then of course I can also still recall the documentary a couple of years back: "Young Freud in Gaza", following one (1) of two (2) child psychologists active in there, trying to work with what was effectively a hoard of traumatised little kids.

Now, the Sderot side of things, awful as that existence is, had the problem of what to do with bedwetting kids with anxiety and unhealthy attachment to parents. In Gaza the psychologists had all these problems as well, but they had to take second seat to working with traumatised 5-year olds to try to come up with ANY damn reason for these kids to continue living, and focus on that, BESIDES an all-consuming thirst for vengeance against Israelis for having killed dad/mom/brother/sister etc, and the fear that they or any other of their loved ones might be next. And the big problem was that they were still in Gaza. There simply was next to bugger all they could even TRY to make these kids focus on, besides where the Israelis were, so they could try to kill some, when they got older. And due to the nature of the situation, in Gaza there's no escape from situation and a constant awareness of being boxed in by Israel, so good luck with that...

 

[luiz]

That helps.

What's also at hand for the Palestinians are some effing huge object lessons. Especially in Gaza.

This is not some kind of brain-in-a-wat response to mere words.

My morning paper carried a telephone interview with a Swedish-Palestinian woman from inside Gaza. In her words: "Kids here are not normal."

On Sunday my pubic service radio weekly political news magazine ran with a story from Sderot, about the traumatisation of Israeli children made to live with the constant threat of rockets. A very weary and sympathetic pschyiatrist working with these kids likened it to shovelling sand. Any progress made, along comes a rocket and it's all undone.

Well, that's bad. But then of course I can also still recall the documentary a couple of years back: "Young Freud in Gaza", following one (1) of two (2) child psychologists active in there, trying to work with what was effectively a hoard of traumatised little kids.

Now, the Sderot side of things, awful as that existence is, had the problem of what to do with bedwetting kids with anxiety and unhealthy attachment to parents. In Gaza the psychologists had all these problems as well, but they had to take second seat to working with traumatised 5-year olds to try to come up with ANY damn reason for these kids to continue living, and focus on that, BESIDES an all-consuming thirst for vengeance against Israelis for having killed dad/mom/brother/sister etc, and the fear that they or any other of their loved ones might be next. And the big problem was that they were still in Gaza. There simply was next to bugger all they could even TRY to make these kids focus on, besides where the Israelis were, so they could try to kill some, when they got older. And due to the nature of the situation, in Gaza there's no escape from situation and a constant awareness of being boxed in by Israel, so good luck with that...

There's no denying that the situation in Gaza is pretty bad (though it is by no means even among the worst in the world).

But who is mostly to blame? I say the Palestinian leadership. Israel is of course also to blame, especially if we look at the whole history. But if we look at the more recent developments, it becomes clear where the blame for the awful situation of today lies. In the six years of the Second Intifada (2000-2006), the Palestinian per capita income fell by almost 40% (this is for the whole Palestine, doubtless it was worse in Gaza). Their infra-structure still has not recovered, and the independence of their state, if anything, became further away. All for what?

The Palestinians are the largest per capita recipients of foreign aid in the world, they used to be solidly a middle income country and they could be doing OK if their leaders (especially Arafat) had any real interest in the long term security and prosperity of their people, as opposed to only their power (or their deep hatred for Israel, in the case of the islamists).

 

[Tahuti]

Ah, the inconvenient fact of the state of Israel having been founded by terrorists keeps coming up...

Pretty much every modern state that wasn't founded by a despot was founded by what by today's standards are called terrorist groups. Ireland wouldn't have achieved independence without the IRA and neither would Algeria without the FLN. The Boston Tea Partiers would have be arrested by the FBI if they pulled a comparable prank in Boston now. Tito's partisans killed more than just occupying Nazis.

 

[Leoreth]

But the point here is that the injustice does not need to be real. What had the Jews done to the Germans to deserve all the hate in the 30's?

Sure, but that doesn't allow you to dismiss actual injustices as a contributing factor with a cheap "nah, it's just hate".

 

[Lone Wolf]

In the six years of the Second Intifada (2000-2006), the Palestinian per capita income fell by almost 40% (this is for the whole Palestine, doubtless it was worse in Gaza). Their infra-structure still has not recovered, and the independence of their state, if anything, became further away. All for what?

And Israel has nothing to do with it?

 

[luiz]

Sure, but that doesn't allow you to dismiss actual injustices as a contributing factor with a cheap "nah, it's just hate".

I can dismiss "injustice" and "poverty", two fetishes for some people, as main drivers of terrorism, yes.

And Israel has nothing to do with it?

Sure it does, but fact is Israel did not wish for the Second Intifada. They didn't even do anything to trigger it (unless you really buy that Sharon visiting Temple Mount is reason enough to commit collective suicide).

 

[Lone Wolf]

Sure it does, but fact is Israel did not wish for the Second Intifada. They didn't even do anything to trigger it

I'd say that the whole "occupation" business is enough to trigger an occasional intifada from time to time, whether Israel likes it or not.

 

[luiz]

I'd say that the whole "occupation" business is enough to trigger an occasional intifada from time to time, whether Israel likes it or not.

Fine. Let me put it this way: there are smart and there are stupid ways to fight against a vastly more powerful "occupying force" (Israel is a remarkably benign occupier, but I won't go there). A way that results in a collapse of your economy, with a 40% reduction in GDP per capita, and makes independence look further than before is clearly a very, very stupid way.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Sure it does, but fact is Israel did not wish for the Second Intifada. They didn't even do anything to trigger it (unless you really buy that Sharon visiting Temple Mount is reason enough to commit collective suicide).

It was a combination of things. It wasn't simply because an Israeli PM visited Al Aqsa, it was the assholish way that he did it, amongst so many other things, including the way the Camp David talks went; something which was also mostly Sharon's fault, though that is hardly the point.

Fine. Let me put it this way: there are smart and there are stupid ways to fight against a vastly more powerful "occupying force" (Israel is a remarkably benign occupier, but I won't go there). A way that results in a collapse of your economy, with a 40% reduction in GDP per capita, and makes independence look further than before is clearly a very, very stupid way.

I think we can all agree with that.

 

[luiz]

More developments:

Hamas publically executes 6 people suspected of collaborating with Israel

 

[dutchfire]

I also enjoyed this: http://news.yahoo.com/rocket-fired-jerusalem-police-didnt-hit-city-122447887.html

Hamas hitting the West Bank.

 

[Lone Wolf]

More developments:

Hamas publically executes 6 people suspected of collaborating with Israel

There is broad consensus among Palestinians that informers for Israel deserve harsh punishment, and it is rare to hear someone speak out against killings of alleged collaborators.

Sounds like Israel enjoys a really bad rep in Palestinian territories. Now, why is that? Must be the irrational, perfidious, hateful innate nature of the Palestinian people...

 

[Borachio]

Hmmm.

Israel has relied on informers ever since it captured the West Bank, Gaza Strip and east Jerusalem in the 1967 Mideast War. Some are recruited with promises of work permits or money, while others are blackmailed into collaborating.

 

[Arwon]

War, man.