Middle East on fire - Part XVII

[Borachio]

Bit of an unrealistic foreign policy there. If Israel didn't want armed neighbours, I'm interested to know how you think they should go about trying to achieve such a far-fetched aim.

Of course, one way might be to not engage in international arms dealing in the first place.

And then occupy the moral Golan heights ground.

But, see, as well, that's the whole nuclear proliferation thing all over.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

At least to me "Every nation would retaliate rocket attacks" is a bit of a straw man. I agree that in principle at least the Israeli reaction to such attacks is in itself not that blameworthy. What makes Israel blameworthy are the surrounding circumstances. Israel being the by far stronger power, the somewhat dictating power, it has to accept a higher standard of judgment than the Hamas. Because in contrast to the Hamas, it can simply establish facts. But what are those facts it establishes? Illegal settlement, taking all Palestinians as hostage on the account of the Hamas - indefinitely.
That Israel is to blame is not a matter of Israel being the bad guy for fighting for the safety of its citizens, it is a matter of Israel allowing this whole situation to continue, hell to even steer the fire. Even though it holds almost all the cards in the situation.

 

[Leoreth]

And then occupy the moral Golan heights ground.

Forced puns! I love 'em.

 

[Absolution]

Nor is that the issue. If there weren't an embargo, there were no need for any smuggling period. Gaza is basically dependent on im-/export.

Such a naive thought...

Why do you think there is a siege?
Just to give a job to Israeli ships?

 

[Agent327]

This:

At least to me "Every nation would retaliate rocket attacks" is a bit of a straw man. I agree that in principle at least the Israeli reaction to such attacks is in itself not that blameworthy. What makes Israel blameworthy are the surrounding circumstances. Israel being the by far stronger power, the somewhat dictating power, it has to accept a higher standard of judgment than the Hamas. Because in contrast to the Hamas, it can simply establish facts. But what are those facts it establishes? Illegal settlement, taking all Palestinians as hostage on the account of the Hamas - indefinitely.
That Israel is to blame is not a matter of Israel being the bad guy for fighting for the safety of its citizens, it is a matter of Israel allowing this whole situation to continue, hell to even steer the fire. Even though it holds almost all the cards in the situation.

As to Israel's embargo being reasonable, that denies the dependence of Gaza on trade. It's not just the arms control idea that's detrimental, but the whole idea of control itself. I can't really see how any community would suffer it, but when it comes to Gaza, somehow there's nothing wrong with such a policy. (Not to mention that most arms enter via Sinai, over which Israel has no control whatsoever, even if Egypt were cooperative in this matter.)

 

[wolfigor]

As to Israel's embargo being reasonable, that denies the dependence of Gaza on trade.

It seems that post June 2010 the list of forbidden items is quite reasonable and not really detrimental to Gaza economy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_allowed_or_banned_for_import_into_Gaza#Post-June_2010

There are two list.

List 1, mostly weapons, and material/technology to build them: items completely forbidden

List 2: mostly construction material: allowed after inspection and request

 

[Agent327]

Theoretically, that sounds perfectly reasonable. In practice, however, that means that all imports are stopped for inspection. (You may remember a certain incident with Turkey over a ship destined for Gaza...)

 

[Absolution]

Theoretically, that sounds perfectly reasonable. In practice, however, that means that all imports are stopped for inspection. (You may remember a certain incident with Turkey over a ship destined for Gaza...)

And it was proved to be necessary.

 

[luiz]

Theoretically, that sounds perfectly reasonable. In practice, however, that means that all imports are stopped for inspection. (You may remember a certain incident with Turkey over a ship destined for Gaza...)

All imports to Brazil are stopped for inspection by the Brazilian authorities as well...

About the incident with Turkey, I say Israel should send a "Freedom Convoy" to help the Kurds who are being occupied and terrorized by the Turkish Entity.

 

[Flying Pig]

I think we do have to remember that the Israelis are living in an extremely volatile situation, with a totally implacable enemy right on their doorstep and no chance of any help from their neighbours. They have a right to their paranoia.

 

[Absolution]

In general, I'm very glad to see a considerable support in Israel during this operation.

All imports to Brazil are stopped for inspection by the Brazilian authorities as well...

About the incident with Turkey, I say Israel should send a "Freedom Convoy" to help the Kurds who are being occupied and terrorized by the Turkish Entity.

And don't forget the most important part!
When the Turkish officers/soldiers come to stop us, we should hit them with baseball bats and physically throw them away.

 

[Agent327]

And it was proved to be necessary.

I'd recommend you ask Gazan civilians how "necessary" these inpsections are...

All imports to Brazil are stopped for inspection by the Brazilian authorities as well...

Right. We're talking about Gazan imports being checked by Gazan authorities... O wait, we're not.

I think we do have to remember that the Israelis are living in an extremely volatile situation, with a totally implacable enemy right on their doorstep and no chance of any help from their neighbours. They have a right to their paranoia.

And ofcourse paranoia is a good guide to conduct foreign policy on...

In general, I'm very glad to see a considerable support in Israel during this operation.

So much so that Israelis are now not happy with their PM agreeing to a truce...

 

[Flying Pig]

I'd recommend you ask Gazan civilians how "necessary" these inpsections are...

Which is like asking aircraft passengers how neccessary pat-downs are.

 

[Arwon]

It seems that post June 2010 the list of forbidden items is quite reasonable and not really detrimental to Gaza economy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_allowed_or_banned_for_import_into_Gaza#Post-June_2010

There are two list.

List 1, mostly weapons, and material/technology to build them: items completely forbidden

List 2: mostly construction material: allowed after inspection and request

The devil has always been in the detail of what "dual use" means.

 

[Absolution]

I'd recommend you ask Gazan civilians how "necessary" these inpsections are...

At least from Israeli eyes, the life and safety of the citizens of Israel are more important than the convenience of Gaza residents.

So much so that Israelis are now not happy with their PM agreeing to a truce...

I may have phrased it incorrectly.
I mean, the global support for Israel during this operation was nice.
I didn't talk about the support among Israelis.

 

[Glassfan]

And ofcourse paranoia is a good guide to conduct foreign policy on...

Surrounded by implacable enemies, sure. Question is, are they paranoid enough?

The Palestinians have been cynically used as a foil by surrounding Muslim powers against Israel since 1948. Yet those entities are given a pass. Currently Iran is the chief supporter and weapons-supplier to Hamas. If we're trying to fix blame, include Iran's share.

 

[Absolution]

Surrounded by implacable enemies, sure. Question is, are they paranoid enough?

The Palestinians have been cynically used as a foil by surrounding Muslim powers against Israel since 1948. Yet those entities are given a pass. Currently Iran is the chief supporter and weapons-supplier to Hamas. If we're trying to fix blame, include Iran's share.

Actually, last week the emir of Qatar offered the Hamas a better economic support if they cut their dependence on Iran.
He said that Hamas has to be financed by Sunni Muslims, because Hamas is a Sunni organization, while their current supporters and suppliers are Iran - a Shiite state.
He also said that Iran and the rest of the Shiites haven't yet understood that opposing Israel in violent ways is old fashioned, and that diplomacy is the key now.

But I don't know if the agreed.

 

[Glassfan]

Actually, last week the emir of Qatar offered the Hamas a better economic support if they cut their dependence on Iran.
He said that Hamas has to be financed by Sunni Muslims, because Hamas is a Sunni organization, while their current supporters and suppliers are Iran - a Shiite state.
He also said that Iran and the rest of the Shiites haven't yet understood that opposing Israel in violent ways is old fashioned, and that diplomacy is the key now.

But I don't know if the agreed.

Good news. But if Yasser Arafat was any lesson, the terrorists won't easily change their spots. And certainly many of the missiles fired at Israel this past week were "Made in Iran".

 

[Agent327]

Which is like asking aircraft passengers how neccessary pat-downs are.

Bad analogy. Your point being?

At least from Israeli eyes, the life and safety of the citizens of Israel are more important than the convenience of Gaza residents.

Which is more to the point.

I may have phrased it incorrectly.
I mean, the global support for Israel during this operation was nice.
I didn't talk about the support among Israelis.

I'm not sure if "nice" is the right word here...

Surrounded by implacable enemies, sure. Question is, are they paranoid enough?

If that were a proper assertion, there would never be any peace, truce or negotiations. Some realism, please.

The Palestinians have been cynically used as a foil by surrounding Muslim powers against Israel since 1948. Yet those entities are given a pass.

They are "given a pass" as they are states - such as Israel itself has been given a free pass by the Western powers. Unfortunately, the Palestinians aren't that lucky, so no pass for them. And then people are upset they seek support elsewhere...

Good news. But if Yasser Arafat was any lesson, the terrorists won't easily change their spots.

Terrorists rarely do, and invasions or air strikes won't stop terrorism, as it doesn't take away the cause.

 

[Leoreth]

Terrorists rarely do, and invasions or air strikes won't stop terrorism, as it doesn't take away the cause.

So you think it's inherently futile to negotiate with people like Arafat?