Modern day conservatism boils down to the denial of oppression

[Kozmos]

Conservatism to me seems like rooting for the underdog. People have always valued tradition of sorts, but values keep changing. It's unstoppable so they always lose in the end. At most they the process.

 

[kochman]

Conservatism to me seems like rooting for the underdog. People have always valued tradition of sorts, but values keep changing. It's unstoppable so they always lose in the end. At most they the process.

For the most part you seem correct, progress comes...
However, they are also long-term successful when we start looking at certain specific issues, and those issues remain part of the culture for keeps (at least during our lives).

 

[illram]

There is a certain wisdom in slow steady gradual change. I don't think any reasonable conservative would argue we need to be completely static.

 

[Kozmos]

For the most part you seem correct, progress comes...
However, they are also long-term successful when we start looking at certain specific issues, and those issues remain part of the culture for keeps (at least during our lives).

What specific issues? I'm curious because I'm under the view that nothing is sacred in the end. Some cultures absorb some general values that stick around for quite a while as a norm or in some kind of collective subconscious unconsciousness of society but it even that erodes eventually, especially nowadays with the kind of fragmented, parasitic/symbiotic, adaptive culture of America and the internet that has stuck its tentacles into every corner of the world.

 

[gay_Aleks]

There is a certain wisdom in slow steady gradual change. I don't think any reasonable conservative would argue we need to be completely static.

Unless, of course, in order to preserve their power for years to go. For some reason, everyone wants to do that.

 

[kochman]

What specific issues? I'm curious because I'm under the view that nothing is sacred in the end. Some cultures absorb some general values that stick around for quite a while as a norm or in some kind of collective subconscious unconsciousness of society but it even that erodes eventually, especially nowadays with the kind of fragmented, parasitic/symbiotic, adaptive culture of America and the internet that has stuck its tentacles into every corner of the world.

The defense of marriage over the centuries, for example... to the point where they practically demand for parents.

I know it's easy on a board with so many liberals, including myself, to bash the Repubs and dog pile them... like kicking Montezuma when he's down... but I'll sometimes play the devil's advocate just to keep you all sane.

 

[jackelgull]

It isn't like I want to bash anybody, conservatives included. I follow the tenant that, if you think somebody is a jerk, make a hundred excuses for them, and if you can't think of any, then believe that there is a legitimate reason that God is hiding from you.

But still, I read things things like this and get angry-
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/05/19/mississippi-2/

 

[Harv]

Modern day conservatism boils down to the denial of oppression

It's really gotten that simple.

Such a modern-day conservative needs to open his paycheck and take a look at the deductions.

 

[Kozmos]

The defense of marriage over the centuries, for example... to the point where they practically demand for parents.

I know it's easy on a board with so many liberals, including myself, to bash the Repubs and dog pile them... like kicking Montezuma when he's down... but I'll sometimes play the devil's advocate just to keep you all sane.

Well marriage has and had differing definitions depending on culture. But I'd say even that generally accepted definition is in process of slow transformation.

I'm not necessarily against Repubs as I have zero at stake. (my country has no oil and is already a democracy )

 

[Hygro]

Yet so many conservatives are poor and in a sense oppressed by those with money. How do you explain that?

Abuse victims are more likely to abuse.

 

[jackelgull]

I'm not necessarily against Repubs as I have zero at stake. (my country has no oil and is already a democracy )

Then you haven't heard what the US did to the Congo have you? No oil and being democratic is no guarantee of the US not interfering in the foraign affairs of another country.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Not all attempts at progress are desirable. Conservatism serves to delay all progress until there is some evidence it's desirable. In which case conservatism should adapt that as the new baseline for it's conservatism. That last step unfortunately rarely plays out.

 

[El_Machinae]

Thinking about it more, I don't think it's universally true. There's a lot to conservatism that doesn't fall into this boiling down. That said, it's a fair criticism, and I think modern conservatives would be well-served realizing they could excise their tolerance for oppression from their mindset.

 

[Borachio]

I thought conservatism boiled* down to accepting responsibility.

*I like that word. I'm going to type it again: "boiled". Nice!

 

[Porcupined]

Abuse victims are more likely to abuse.

Very true and very applicable. It's about shame and the standards set by society.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I thought conservatism boiled down to accepting responsibility.

You are not responsible for society. You are responsible for how you deal with it. Society is responsible for society.
"Accepting responsibility" seems to acknowledge the former but ignore the latter.

Which is something I like to call "stupid-ass-individualism"

So really, if conservatism boils down to anything it is IMO individualism. But that in deed goes hand in hand with condoning oppression. Because the ideology of individualism absolves you from almost any responsibility other than for yourself. And if you get to oppress people - good for you! Well done, sir! Success!

It is gut-wrenching. So I try to not think about it. Still trying.

 

[kochman]

Not all attempts at progress are desirable. Conservatism serves to delay all progress until there is some evidence it's desirable. In which case conservatism should adapt that as the new baseline for it's conservatism. That last step unfortunately rarely plays out.

Thinking about it more, I don't think it's universally true. There's a lot to conservatism that doesn't fall into this boiling down. That said, it's a fair criticism, and I think modern conservatives would be well-served realizing they could excise their tolerance for oppression from their mindset.

Correct, gentlemen.

 

[Borachio]

You are not responsible for society. You are responsible for how you deal with it. Society is responsible for society.
"Accepting responsibility" seems to acknowledge the former but ignore the latter.

Which is something I like to call "stupid-ass-individualism"

So really, if conservatism boils down to anything it is IMO individualism. But that in deed goes hand in hand with condoning oppression. Because the ideology of individualism absolves you from almost any responsibility other than for yourself. And if you get to oppress people - good for you! Well done, sir! Success!

It is gut-wrenching. So I try to not think about it. Still trying.

OK. That's a start, I suppose.

(I wouldn't call myself conservative, btw. But never mind.)

By accepting responsibility I really meant accepting responsibility for one's own situation rather than expecting, or relying on, state organizations to arrange things.

If an individual can't accept responsibility for himself how can he can accept responsibility for others?

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I know you did and to be clear I am not saying this ideology is actually wrong, in itself. Rather, what I am lamenting about is to limit oneself to this ideology.
People should take charge of their own life. But it doesn't follow that hence say universal health care is bad. Or social security. There is more to a good society than individuals taking care of themselves. It is IMO just really narrow-minded to be stuck in that POV. And there is a lot more that lies beyond that POV than the typical measures of social democracy, for that matter. There are also fundamental question of how we actually want to live together. Questions which are not asked in mainstream politics. Be it Republicans, Democrats, Labor, the Social Democratic Party of Germany or what have you. Mainstream politics is stuck in the old paradigm, unable to have any real vision. Hence why to me all mainstream politics is conservative.

 

[Borachio]

Well, just so. I don't disagree. Society (good or bad), by definition, is more than a collection of individuals looking after themselves.

Baroness Thatcher, Arch Conservative, (may she rest peacefully - I wasn't going to write that, but let's not be mean), held that "There's no such thing as Society". I disagreed at the time, and I still do.