Most Devastating Civil Wars

[Domen]

It also turned them into a superpower.

Yeah, a "superpower" with more nuclear bombs and tanks than food.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

They took all the sausage they needed from poor Poland.

Wut u do about it?

 

[Dachs]

They took all the sausage they needed from poor Poland.

Wut u do about it?

I don't think that the average Pole would complain much about having his sausage in a Russian's mouth.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I don't think that the average Pole would complain much about having his sausage in a Russian's mouth.

True story.

Do they still route the sausage through the Georgian butcher first?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

One of the most devastating civil wars, were peasant rebellions against the Communists, which occured during the Russian civil war, and were caused mostly by Communist policies - such as forced collectivization or forced and predatory requisitions of food from peasants, which caused their families starving.

How much peasants "loved" Soviet Communists and their "pro-peasant" policies is shown by the number of peasant uprisings against Soviet Communists

The Russian Civil War was certainly cataclysmic, and its sheer devastation and repercussions are things that must be taken into account when judging the efficacy of Soviet policies against Western policies during the 20th century. In the beginning, the peasants were staunch allies of the monarchy, as they had traditionally seen the Tsar as their Big Father, protector of the peasants against the grasping aristocracy. This was, incidentally, also how the Tsar saw himself to his people. The most apparent manifestation of this delusion was Bloody Sunday in 1905. But the poorer and less delusional of the peasants were Socialist Revolutionary supporters, as they were the main revolutionary party of the army, and the peasantry made up the bulk of the army in 1917. It was these radicalized peasants who went home and raised revolution in the countryside, joined with the Petrograd Soviet, and earned the sickle in the Bolshevik insignia, symbolizing the alliance of workers and peasants in overthrowing capitalism and imperialism.

The Russian peasants for the most part trusted no one but themselves. They were a serious problem for everyone in the Civil War, Greens, Reds, Whites, and Blacks. Russian communes were already largely cut off from the world and living in the most bare of poverty, and when the world collapsed on itself in Russia, they withdrew to the one thing they knew: each other. They attracted the ire of whatever army was in the area, because they refused grain requisitioning (which every side did), and because they attacked anything and anyone who came close to them. The Tambov Rebellion was the best-organized of them, but the vast majority had zero organization outside of the village elders' council (incidentally, also called a soviet).

 

[Lone Wolf]

The Whites permanently alienated the peasantry with their refusal to consider any agrarian reforms until a half-hearted too-late-for-them effort, though.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

The Whites permanently alienated the peasantry with their refusal to consider any agrarian reforms until a half-hearted too-late-for-them effort, though.

Yes. A big part of the rise of the Bolsheviks, as well as the longevity of their support during those tough years, was quite simply that everyone else had either sold out or told the peasantry and working class to screw themselves in no uncertain terms. No one was able to offer anything better, and the Bolsheviks were the only ones who actually delivered on what their promised, and on enough of what The People wanted at the time. It's not pretty, but it's what worked, and that counts for enough.

People can rant all day about how supposedly terrible the Bolsheviks were, but the simple fact is that everyone else was worse. The Russians themselves knew that better than anyone.

 

[Yeekim]

English Civil War should definitely rank up there. IIRC as a percentage of population it killed more English than WWI.

Which English Civil War? Haven't there been like a dozen of them?

 

[Yeekim]

Yes. A big part of the rise of the Bolsheviks, as well as the longevity of their support during those tough years, was quite simply that everyone else had either sold out or told the peasantry and working class to screw themselves in no uncertain terms. No one was able to offer anything better, and the Bolsheviks were the only ones who actually delivered on what their promised, and on enough of what The People wanted at the time. It's not pretty, but it's what worked, and that counts for enough.

People can rant all day about how supposedly terrible the Bolsheviks were, but the simple fact is that everyone else was worse. The Russians themselves knew that better than anyone.

Everyone else? Besides the Whites, who would that be? The Greens and the Blacks (both basically peasantry themselves)?
EDIT: Sorry for doublepost...

 

[Ajidica]

Which English Civil War? Haven't there been like a dozen of them?

The one between Charles 'I like my head' the First and Oliver 'Oppressing the Irish and banning fun are both good ideas' Cromwell.

 

[Traitorfish]

Well, there was at least three of them, and as many as seven depending on how you count the wars in Ireland and Scotland. Messy couple of decades.

 

[sophie]

Well, there was at least three of them, and as many as seven depending on how you count the wars in Ireland and Scotland. Messy couple of decades.

Yeah - we talking 1st Bishops' War, 2nd Bishops' War, First Civil War, Second Civil War, or Charles II's last stand here?

 

[Yeekim]

The one between Charles 'I like my head' the First and Oliver 'Oppressing the Irish and banning fun are both good ideas' Cromwell.

Nah, oppressing the Irish IS fun.
Anyway, checking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_civil_wars
makes it a dozen.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Everyone else? Besides the Whites, who would that be? The Greens and the Blacks (both basically peasantry themselves)?
EDIT: Sorry for doublepost...

Not just the kaleidoscope of armies during the Civil War, but the different parties as well. The SRs, Constitutional Democrats (Kadets), the anarchists, the monarchists, Narodniks/Narodnaya Volya, and the Mensheviks. Everyone else (except the anarchists, who joined with the Bolsheviks early on in 1917, and Narodnaya Volya, who were mid-disintegration at the beginning of the war anyway) had had a chance at running the country and had failed to deliver meaningfully to the people. No one was left but the Bolsheviks, and they gave the people enough of what they wanted to keep them on their side. All the things the Bolsheviks get crap for doing during the civil war everyone else did as well, and were worse about it. War Communism wasn't pleasant, but what were the Whites doing? Everyone in War Communism, plus killing Jews and doing other nasties. The Bolsheviks requisitioned grain and drafted people, but they also solved the Land Question conclusively and satisfactorily, and brought worker organization to industries and farms, which meant higher wages and more political freedom.

 

[Zipa_DH]

Maybe one of the nine civil wars we had here...probably the thousand days' war...it's incredible we still have a country...

 

[Lone Wolf]

but what were the Whites doing? Everyone in War Communism

Official Soviet historiography, paradoxically, had a problem with admitting that grain requisitions were not a Bolshevik invention but began during WWI even before 1917.

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

I say that the French Wars of Religion, the War of Five Kings, and the Anarchy were pretty rough for their times.

 

[Masada]

French Wars of Religion

Wars of Catholic Persecution.