pre-release info New Civ Game Guide: Abbasid

[Boris Gudenuf]

The challenge to implement this is that within the ~150 turns of the 2nd age, you need to have a full cycle of foundation, spread, competition, dominance, decline, crisis. I can see a religious-oriented crisis in the end of the 2nd age though that may wipe out or divide your religion. In the last age, there‘s possibly something else that takes over the main path for happiness - although religion might be possible to keep if you specifically choose so (e.g., a religious ideology) Yet, I think we were told that the main spot for religion is in the 2nd age.

Following what they've said about the Ages, I could see the 2nd Age Crisis Period involving the rise of Enlightenment/secular thinking and the incipient Industrial Era to downgrade the importance of religion dramatically - an included Religious Crisis Period, so to speak.

That, in turn, would open up the Modern Age as an Age of decreased importance of established religion but increased importance of ideologies like Nationalism which invoke the same fervor that religion once did. That simplifies the models of religion and ideology considerably, but not too much for game purposes: basically, to get the same levels of Happiness and other bonuses you got from Religion, you have to start all over, or nearly all over, with Ideological/political conformity and Consumer Goods for population happiness.

 

[Krikkit1]

Following what they've said about the Ages, I could see the 2nd Age Crisis Period involving the rise of Enlightenment/secular thinking and the incipient Industrial Era to downgrade the importance of religion dramatically - an included Religious Crisis Period, so to speak.

That, in turn, would open up the Modern Age as an Age of decreased importance of established religion but increased importance of ideologies like Nationalism which invoke the same fervor that religion once did. That simplifies the models of religion and ideology considerably, but not too much for game purposes: basically, to get the same levels of Happiness and other bonuses you got from Religion, you have to start all over, or nearly all over, with Ideological/political conformity and Consumer Goods for population happiness.

I would more likely see it as

Crisis: Schismatic War/CivilWar (if you had one religion over your empire a schism happens and the schismatics rebel)…or a Schism that already happened needs purifying of the other’s influences.

The Enlightenment /decreased effect of Religion in the Third Age would not be the Crisis but the response to it.


I do agree “Founder” effect’s should go to near zero. You could still win with religion by being the Leader* of a religion that covered most of the world

*Get Leader points for Relics from that Religion / converting Settlements to that religion, etc.

 

[Josephias]

Following what they've said about the Ages, I could see the 2nd Age Crisis Period involving the rise of Enlightenment/secular thinking and the incipient Industrial Era to downgrade the importance of religion dramatically - an included Religious Crisis Period, so to speak.

Agreed, although I see the potential of religion to create Traditions (as ideologies may do or provide in 3rd era. This would give benefit to be the founder of a religion rather than the follower (you can both use the tradition set, yet the founder gets to select which traditions he wants at certain religion development points), and the traditions may still be carried to 3rd era, the same way ancient and exploration age civilization traditions are transferred too.

Inded, as @Krikkit1 exposes, the crisis may be more focused in the religious Schisms (that is, religion that previoulsy provided hapinnes to all, now doesn't, or even is a source of unhappiness)

 

[Zaarin]

Agreed, although I see the potential of religion to create Traditions (as ideologies may do or provide in 3rd era. This would give benefit to be the founder of a religion rather than the follower (you can both use the tradition set, yet the founder gets to select which traditions he wants at certain religion development points), and the traditions may still be carried to 3rd era, the same way ancient and exploration age civilization traditions are transferred too.

I think there should be some benefit to the founder, but I also think you shouldn't feel like you've missed out on the religious game if you didn't found a religion. Religions are rarely most important where they were founded: Christianity in Israel/the Levant vs. in Europe, Manichaeism in Persia vs. Central Asia/China, Buddhism in India vs. East, Southeast, and North Asia--Islam, Hinduism, and Zoroastrianism are the major exceptions.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Good catch!
Not quite the Abbasid timeframe and not exactly the look, but something similar to this Ottoman Era Mamluk armor might have been used as the model. Still, I wouldn't necessarily picture an early Mamluk with such heavy armor and horse armor.

Mamluks changed dramatically in appearance over the period they existed.

The earliest descriptions of them from Crusader sources (13th century) have them largely unarmored, mounted archers with curved swords (sabers) - very similar, in fact, to the 'classic' central Asian pastorals they came from:

This illustration is from Ian Heath's Armies and Enemies of the Crusades 1096 - 1291 AD published in 1978.

The details are from a combination of contemporary Crusader descriptions and date from the period 1280 - 1300 CE. Aside from the iron helmet (with feather) on Number 56, neither shows any armor, but several contemporaries describe Islamic cavalry wearing armor under their coats (the same thing Christian knights started doing when they realized how hot metal exposed to a Middle Eastern sun could get!). While 56 shows the typical weapons: lance and bow, No. 57 is using a mace which was also very common, since it could knock someone senseless or break bones regardless of any armor worn. The round shield (with sample blazons) was most common, but some are also recorded using the Norman-like 'kite' shield.

From the same book, this is the earliest reconstruction of a certainly-armored Mamluk, dating to about 1290 CE. The iron helmet and mail face mask on No, 58 is a very distinctive feature, the armor could be link mail reinforced with small plates called Teneke (shown in the insert 'a') or composed entirely of lammellar iron plates as shown on the main No. 58 figure. Horses could be armored in the same way. Weapons are the same: lance, bow, circular shield - here with a heraldic Lion blazon.

No. 59 is a Mamuk infantry Guardsman, shown accompanying the Sultan on foot and carrying what looks very much like a classic Scandinavian long axe. Unfortunately, there is no evidence of these "Tabardar" ('Axemen') in battle - we don't even know for sure how many of them there were: no more than 30 were apparently ever seen at one time and recorded by anybody.

 

[Josephias]

I think there should be some benefit to the founder, but I also think you shouldn't feel like you've missed out on the religious game if you didn't found a religion. Religions are rarely most important where they were founded: Christianity in Israel/the Levant vs. in Europe, Manichaeism in Persia vs. Central Asia/China, Buddhism in India vs. East, Southeast, and North Asia--Islam, Hinduism, and Zoroastrianism are the major exceptions.

Here HK had an annoying (but maybe relevant) mechaninc in which you would become the "leader" of a religion if your civ outnumbered the believers of the founder (or current leader). Not sure if we want it or not in civ, but it is a possibility.

 

[Krikkit1]

I think there should be some benefit to the founder, but I also think you shouldn't feel like you've missed out on the religious game if you didn't found a religion. Religions are rarely most important where they were founded: Christianity in Israel/the Levant vs. in Europe, Manichaeism in Persia vs. Central Asia/China, Buddhism in India vs. East, Southeast, and North Asia--Islam, Hinduism, and Zoroastrianism are the major exceptions.

I think Founder benefits should be
1. you get to choose the Initial* religion benefits
2. you have a head start at being the Leader

*Later points may allow the Religion’s Leader to add additional bonuses or even respec them (although respecing should probably cause a schism)

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

So...
The Tjaty was described as a unique Vizier-Architect. The Logios was described as a unique scholar. The Shi Dafu was described as a unique scholar-bureaucrat. But they didn't really give a classification for what type of unique great person the Alim are.

Not that it matters. There don't seem to be great persons beyond the unique ones. So each unique is its own type, and categorical descriptors beyond that are superfluous.

 

[AriochIV]

Not that it matters. There don't seem to be great persons beyond the unique ones. So each unique is its own type, and categorical descriptors beyond that are superfluous.

Yeah... since there aren't regular great persons, the "type" of these unique great persons doesn't seem to have any real meaning and is probably just for flavor or to help understand their general character.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

So...
The Tjaty was described as a unique Vizier-Architect. The Logios was described as a unique scholar. The Shi Dafu was described as a unique scholar-bureaucrat. But they didn't really give a classification for what type of unique great person the Alim are.

Not that it matters. There don't seem to be great persons beyond the unique ones. So each unique is its own type, and categorical descriptors beyond that are superfluous.

Yeah... since there aren't regular great persons, the "type" of these unique great persons doesn't seem to have any real meaning and is probably just for flavor or to help understand their general character.

If you go through the individual bonuses and names on the lists of Tjaty, Logios and Shi Dafu, all three collections are very mixed: all include people usually classified as administrators, philosophers, engineers, poets, and one literary general (Xenophon). Their bonuses range all over as well.

The pertinent point to all of them is that what you get is Random, apparently, so exactly what useful bonuses you get will probably depend on how much you are willing to 'warp' your Civ in the right direction to use them.

If you are playing a completely pacific Greece, Xenophon's extra military units won't make much difference. If your nearest neighbors are the equivalent of Civ VI's Pedro and Shaka, they could be a Gift Of The Gods.

Right now, it looks to me as if they are going to be a real 'wild card' as much as anything else. Interesting way to shake up the game.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Right now, it looks to me as if they are going to be a real 'wild card' as much as anything else. Interesting way to shake up the game.

Possibly. I could see a lot of players not liking to invest production only to get a bonus they don't value. Maybe what will be random is what great person is available to produce. That would be better, I suspect, as then you'd know whether you wanted to prioritize getting them (even if just to clear them from the top of the queue to get to the next person).

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

If you go through the individual bonuses and names on the lists of Tjaty, Logios and Shi Dafu, all three collections are very mixed: all include people usually classified as administrators, philosophers, engineers, poets, and one literary general (Xenophon). Their bonuses range all over as well.

The pertinent point to all of them is that what you get is Random, apparently, so exactly what useful bonuses you get will probably depend on how much you are willing to 'warp' your Civ in the right direction to use them.

If you are playing a completely pacific Greece, Xenophon's extra military units won't make much difference. If your nearest neighbors are the equivalent of Civ VI's Pedro and Shaka, they could be a Gift Of The Gods.

Right now, it looks to me as if they are going to be a real 'wild card' as much as anything else. Interesting way to shake up the game.

I just realised this system is very reminisicent of the system they had in Civ 3 where each nation had named Generals and Scientists that could be spawned.

 

[King of Prussia]

I never cared for the race to religion past Civ games had. I do wish they had a way of adopting someone else's religion, and having an impact on it. Whether that be bonuses from spreading/enhancing it, or splintering off and making your own based on the parent religion. This would make the race less annoying, and make the religion game more interesting overall. With the age system, this could fit pretty well into the exploration age.

 

[Leucarum]

Possibly. I could see a lot of players not liking to invest production only to get a bonus they don't value. Maybe what will be random is what great person is available to produce. That would be better, I suspect, as then you'd know whether you wanted to prioritize getting them (even if just to clear them from the top of the queue to get to the next person).

I think you just hit the nail on the head for why I've been less inspired by civs with great people than civs without them...

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Introducing Abbasid! Unified by the new religion of Islam, the early Arab caliphates expanded rapidly across the Mediterranean and eastward into Persia. In this world, Baghdad, the capital of the Abbasid dynasty, thrived as a center of learning and culture. Arab scholars advanced astronomy and mathematics, philosophy and art - until, like the fall of night, the Mongols appeared on the eastern horizon.

Attributes:
Scientific
Cultural

Unique Ability:
Medina: Receive Gold for each Rural Population of the City when you create a Specialist. Effect scales with Game Speed.

Unique Infrastructure:
- Ulema: Unique Quarter. Adds Science to all Specialists in this city.
- Madrasa: Unique Building. Science Base. Science adjacency for Quarters and Science Buildings.
- Mosque: Unique Building. Happiness base. Happiness Adjacency for Culture Buildings and Culture Adjacency for Happiness Buildings. Unlocks the ability to found a Religion.

Unique Civilian Unit:
Ālim: Unique Great Person Unit. Can only be built in Cities with an Ulema, and the specific Ālim received is random. Each Ālim can only be received once. Cost increases per Ālim built. (Check the game guide for possible Ālim units!)

Unique Military Unit:
Mamluk: Unique Cavalry Unit. When Stationed in or Occupying a Settlement, receive increased Combat Strength for every Urban Population in this Settlement.

Associated Wonder:
House of Wisdom: Adds Science. Gain a set number of Relics. Increased Science on Great Works. Has a set number of Great Works slots. Must be built adjacent to an Urban tile.

Starting Biases:
Camels
Coast

Check out the full game guide for more info & civic trees: https://civilization.2k.com/civ-vii/game-guide/civilizations/abbasid/

Moderator Action: Short video, currently only on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848756258628595819

View attachment 707088

So Religion is now treat differently. as of now religion is yet to be revealedm or may be expansion affairs. but AFAIK very few kings did found religion themselves, they prefer to align their kingdoms with the most popular religion of any given time and deviate religious order at their respective whim.

Mosque is now Abbasid building rather than Islamic place of worship as IRL and as in the base game.

1. What is 'Alim' means? 'Wiseman' , is Alim more on secular or religion?
2. Did Mamelukes universally Arabian cavalry (or specifically 'Heavy' cavalry) force equivalent to European Knights?

Alternate name of this civ could be Cairo-based Fatimid, this made them more proper successor to Egypt.
unless any Mesopotamian is added either in the base game or in any DLC or expansion (Either Sumerians, Assyrians, or Babylonians will do). Abbasid being successor to Egypt is abit off to me.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Wait a moment, that medieval wall looks different. Does that mean there is a bit of variation in walls, after all?
View attachment 707102

AFAIK there could be. (and better be. so far I don't see Civ6 mod that gives out cultural variants to walls.)
Note that North Americans share the same walls as Europeans! and even use the same cogs! look at Shawnee teaser video. only their garments, and buildings are different.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

1. What is 'Alim' means? 'Wiseman' , is Alim more on secular or religion?

Both

Alternate name of this civ could be Cairo-based Fatimid, this made them more proper successor to Egypt.
unless any Mesopotamian is added either in the base game or in any DLC or expansion (Either Sumerians, Assyrians, or Babylonians will do). Abbasid being successor to Egypt is abit off to me.

The Abbasids also controlled Egypt, as did many different caliphates. I presume Persia will also go into Abbasids as well as any Mesopotamian civs, when they are added in.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Both

The Abbasids also controlled Egypt, as did many different caliphates. I presume Persia will also go into Abbasids as well as any Mesopotamian civs, when they are added in.

But With Islamic Schism that eventually created Shia movements, Persia would again gained independence as Shi' ites stronghold unto this day. Medieval Persia would also be reasonable (and unless there's Medieval Islamic Persia, which used 'Lion holding saber' emblem instead of Zoroastrian Eagle emblem, Aswarun should replace Immortals in Age I Persia).

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

1. What is 'Alim' means? 'Wiseman' , is Alim more on secular or religion?

It means "one who knows" or "one with knowledge". I have personally only ever heard it in a religious context; "Ulema" always refers to the clergy

 

[j51]

But With Islamic Schism that eventually created Shia movements, Persia would again gained independence as Shi' ites stronghold unto this day. Medieval Persia would also be reasonable (and unless there's Medieval Islamic Persia, which used 'Lion holding saber' emblem instead of Zoroastrian Eagle emblem, Aswarun should replace Immortals in Age I Persia).

Ideally Iran will have an Achaemenid - Sassanid - Safavid path by the end of development but for now Persia - Abbasid - ? will do fine.