mrrandomplayer
Hopeless Situation Warrior
As a playable, unique civ!
New Civs [Suggestion/Request]
- Thread starter AtlantaMarty
- Start date
Venice is not a civilization, and including it in Civ5 was really adding insult to injury.
mrrandomplayer
Hopeless Situation Warrior
They weren't a unique civ, but they were one of the, if not THE most important maritime power in Europe before Portugal rounded the strait and took all of Venice's trade routes from Egypt away from them. They took Constantinople and destroyed the Byzantines until they returned as a very weak Greek state, enabling (unintentionally) the Ottomans to come to power. Also, Italy is very culturally divided by region and even cities, much more than some other places. Historically, one could say that Venice had more influence on history than unified Italy had.
Tomorrow's Dawn
Heroes Never Die
It has been for the most part a consistent precedent in this modmod that
new additions to DoC must be civilizations and not states or polities.
Dynamic civ names already represent those very well.
As Venice can be considered part of the overarching Italian civilization, that means no.
SheaferDaDawg
Intelligent Canine
What? Nelson Mandela =/= Robert Mugabe
archcapitalist
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2012
- Messages
- 263
but ben bernanke does
SheaferDaDawg
Intelligent Canine
And for a minute there I thought he was likening Bernanke to Mugabe 
mrrandomplayer
Hopeless Situation Warrior
The Hanseatic League was a league of city-states. Venice was a merchant republic that grew into a maritime empire. The Hanseatic League did not pay the crusaders to take Constantinople and then get 3/8 of the Byzantine Empire.
Really, Europe is crowded enough and some small civs should be removed from it (ex. Poland, Netherlands), but I know, at least, Poland was discussed and shot down.
I do think Africa and North America could do with a few more civilizations. Africa could have three more, a generic Swahili civ, Zimbabwe, and South Africa.
Swahili
Spawn - 900
Capital - Kilwa
Leader(s) - Ali ibn al-Hassan
UP: +2 gold from each trade route in your city.
UB: Port - Replaces harbor. extra gold from trade routes.
UU: Dhow - Replaces trireme. Extra strength and can travel through capes.
UHV: Connect 3 fish and 3 whales by 1050, Have 1000 gold by 1100, Make 1000 gold from trade with other civs by 1500.
Zimbabwe
Spawn - 1000
Capital - Great Zimbabwe, Cape Town (1900 after possible respawn)
Leader(s) - ???, Shaka (1790), Nelson Mandela (1990)
UP: Defensive buildings provide +2 food.
UB: ----
UU: Impi
UHV: Have the largest city in the world by 1500 (GZ was the largest city in sub Saharan Africa), Ensure no colonies in Southern Africa by 1950 (Represent the Zulu), Something to represent South Africa.
Respawn: South Africa after ~1900
Reason for inclusion of Zimbabwe and Swahili. Archaeological evidence suggests that Great Zimbabwe became a centre for trading, with artefacts suggesting that the city formed part of a trade network linked to Kilwa and extending as far as China.
And even though I know Leoreth always shoot down these next suggestions, I'm suggesting them anyway.
Mississippians
Spawn - 800
Capital - Cahokia
Leader(s) - Tuskaloosa, John Ross (1800)
UA: Rivers act as roads (extra speed for units).
UB: Mound: Replaces monument. Does not go obsolete and extra culture.
UU: Blowdart Man: Replaces archer. Extra combat strength agaisnt barbarians.
UHV: Have the largest city in the world by 1300 (it was comparable to London and Paris in size, though smaller than Cordoba, Baghdad, etc, but have one of the largest cities wouldn't be as hard!), Enter the Medieval era before meeting an old world civ, Ensure no European colonies in North America east of the Mississippi by 1750.
Respawn: Cherokee ~1600 (the Five Civilized Tribes are descended from the Mississippians)
Pueblo
Spawn - 200
Capital - Mesa Verde
Leader(s) - Po'pay
UA: Desert and mountains provide +1 food.
UB: Kiva. Replaces Pagan Temple. Extra culture and happiness.
UU: ???. Replaces Spearman. Weaker attacking, but extra defense. (Referring to the Pueblo Revolt)
UHV: Own the Rockie Mountains by 1400, Have no city convert to an old world religion by 1700 (once again, referring to the Pueblo Revolt), Ensure no European colonies in the Rockies, California, and Mesoamerica by 1750.
Reason for including the Mississippians and Puebloans. First, it would make the Aztec and Mayan games a bit more interesting to play before the Europeans show up. Secondly, there is some small evidence of trade between Mesoamerica and the Anasazi. Finally, some scholars that believe migrations and trade between the Mississippian natives and the Mesoamerican civilizations spawned the Mississippian civilization.
I've already suggested a much more fleshed out Boer state
Tomorrow's Dawn
Heroes Never Die
I can make the same kind of justification for Athens, Singapore, or any other individual city-state that was more influential than another compared to it's relevant peers.
I'll even use one of your own quotes to make my point:
All I need to do is swap a few words:
"Also, Greece is very culturally divided by region and even cities, much more than some other places. Historically, one could say that Athens had more influence on history than unified Greece had."
The fact still stands; Venice is Italian. Just like Athens was Greek, no matter how prestigious it was in comparison to it's peers, we aren't going to give it the inclusion treatment.
Therefore, as it does not fit the criteria outlined by Leoreth,
as the mod seeks to include civilizations and not states or polities
(which again, I must stress, is sufficiently covered by the Dynamic Civ Names),
no matter how important, it does not merit inclusion.
It could be made more clear with something like a mission statement.
I'll even draft one for you, Leoreth, if you want.
If it seems like I'm just shooting down Venice, I'm not.
I have studied Venice extensively (at least Renaissance Venice)
and understand completely that it was pretty unique compared to its peers in many regards;
so your point is not lost on me, mrrandomplayer, I know full well how different Venice was from the rest of Italy.
Especially considering their attitudes and approach to art (which reflects many of their societal norms and attitudes, which were fairly different from the rest of Italy).
Compare something from Titian or Bellini (The Feast of the Gods is my favorite amongst Renaissance art), to your typical Mannerist painting and the difference is staggering.
But to me, it still stands that Venice was Italian, and we do have an Italian civ in the game.
I don't know if I can say that enough. Sure, San Francisco & Houston might be as different as fire & water, but they're still part of the same civ, the American one.
Just because one city or city state has a margin of difference from the whole of its peers doesn't make it worthy of separation, especially if the whole civ is already represented.
If we did enable that, I'd be able to justify a unique Liverpool "civ" separate from England or Boston "civ" separate from America.
So on and so forth.
giant49er
Warlord
Not as different as you'd think
. They're a lot more similar to each other than say, San Francisco and Tallahatchie County, Mississippi.
Tomorrow's Dawn
Heroes Never Die
Not as different as you'd think
Actually, you're right on that one. A more apt comparison would probably be with Little Rock or Atlanta.
Pavel Chichikov
King
- Joined
- May 26, 2012
- Messages
- 674
Byzantines are usually dead or moribunt by then, unfortunately.
Naval warfare, especially pre-industrial, is definitely something that could be improved, far more than adding more unnecessary/historically-negligible civs. you guys have to be kidding about pueblo.. I don't want every tile on the map to be someone's core-area, thanks.
Naval warfare, especially pre-industrial, is definitely something that could be improved, far more than adding more unnecessary/historically-negligible civs. you guys have to be kidding about pueblo.. I don't want every tile on the map to be someone's core-area, thanks.
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