New Civs [Suggestion/Request]

[iOnlySignIn]

This is all well and good but:

For example India was never unified until independence, so there's dynamic names like "Indian Mahajanapadas," "Mauryan Empire," "Gupta Empire," etc. Not perfect, but this is Civ IV, not Polity IV.

You do realize that the Tamils are added to DoC already, right?

Other than that you have a good point about the AI. I thought they'd require less effort to improve than adding new full civs but what do I know.

 

[Linkman226]

You do realize that the Tamils are added to DoC already, right?

Other than that you have a good point about the AI. I thought they'd require less effort to improve than adding new full civs but what do I know.

What do the Tamils have to do with anything? In DoC, the Tamils represent South Indian civilization while "India" represents North Indian civilization.

AI's a pain in the ass, as a general rule. I haven't actually ever touched the Civ AI other than a few forays but AI coding tends to be hard. On the other hand, adding full civs may be a little tedious but it's not hard- it's the same old routine that Leoreth has probably got down to an art form by now.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

What do the Tamils have to do with anything? In DoC, the Tamils represent South Indian civilization while "India" represents North Indian civilization.

I assumed that is what you meant by "India was never unified until independence".

You said that Maurya and Gupta names for India are "not perfect" because of this, but in fact they are perfect because there's a separate representation for the Tamils as a full civ. India in game right now covers exactly the same areas as those historical empires did.

However, calling the proposed Swahili civ (one that actually has more than 1 city) "Kilwa Sultanate" would be "not perfect" since it would grossly overepresent the historical extent of Kilwa.

Hence your example of India used as counterargument against me in post 180:

And you wouldn't come up with imaginary names. It's not any different than how every other civ is treated. For example India was never unified until independence, so there's dynamic names like "Indian Mahajanapadas," "Mauryan Empire," "Gupta Empire," etc. Not perfect, but this is Civ IV, not Polity IV.

is invalid. Contrary to what you claim here, the use of Maurya and Gupta names as compared to the proposed use of a Kilwa name is very different. in the former case it's a correct and appropriate use. In the latter case it's a gross exaggeration.

I'm sorry I did not explain what I meant exactly. I assumed others would be able to fill in the gaps.

 

[Linkman226]

I assumed that is what you meant by "India was never unified until independence".

You said that Maurya and Gupta names for India are "not perfect" because of this, but in fact they are perfect because there's a separate representation for the Tamils as a full civ. India in game right now covers exactly the same areas as those historical empires did.

However, calling the proposed Swahili civ (one that actually has more than 1 city) "Kilwa Sultanate" would be "not perfect" since it would grossly overepresent the historical extent of Kilwa.

Hence your example of India used as counterargument against me in post 180:

is invalid. Contrary to what you claim here, the use of Maurya and Gupta names as compared to the proposed use of a Kilwa name is very different. in the former case it's a correct and appropriate use. In the latter case it's a gross exaggeration.

I'm sorry I did not explain what I meant exactly. I assumed others would be able to fill in the gaps.

Well India could be a one city state and it would still be DCN'ed the Gupta Empire. It could also conquer the Tamils and half of Asia and that would still be its name. Because it represents the Indian civilization. We are proposing a Swahili civilization that will represent and take DCN's based off of the various Sultanates, city states, and kingdoms of East Africa of the past 1000 or so years.

 

[Leoreth]

Kilwa did control most of the Swahili coast for a time. Of course they didn't have much control over the hinterland and the more prominent ports were probably largely autonomous as well, but for the purposes of the game considering them "part" of the Sultanate is fine.

You can be the Duchy of Florence too when playing Italy, even while controlling Venice and Rome. I'd favor something along "Swahili City States" when running the respective civic though.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Well India could be a one city state and it would still be DCN'ed the Gupta Empire.

Nope. Not with or without my EDCNs modmodmod.

It could also conquer the Tamils and half of Asia and that would still be its name. Because it represents the Indian civilization.

Do you have a good idea for an alternative name in that case? I will add it to EDCNs if you do.

We are proposing a Swahili civilization that will represent and take DCN's based off of the various Sultanates, city states, and kingdoms of East Africa of the past 1000 or so years.

I don't think there is a "Swahili civilization" in the sense with the other civs in this game. I hope I'm wrong.

Kilwa did control most of the Swahili coast for a time. Of course they didn't have much control over the hinterland and the more prominent ports were probably largely autonomous as well, but for the purposes of the game considering them "part" of the Sultanate is fine.

The crude Culture and City Radius mechanism in Civ IV makes that a problem. For me.

I'd favor something along "Swahili City States" when running the respective civic though.

That should certainly be its default name.

 

[civ_king]

Nope. Not with or without my EDCNs modmodmod.


Do you have a good idea for an alternative name in that case? I will add it to EDCNs if you do.


I don't think there is a "Swahili civilization" in the sense with the other civs in this game. I hope I'm wrong.


The crude Culture and City Radius mechanism in Civ IV makes that a problem. For me.


That should certainly be its default name.

Swahili did have a unique culture due to the Afro-Arab fusion.

Portugal has a similar issue with most of it's colonies being coastal v. the city radius mechanic.

 

[Leoreth]

I don't think there is a "Swahili civilization" in the sense with the other civs in this game. I hope I'm wrong.

There certainly isn't a Swahili civilization in the game.

 

[NorwegianSalmon]

The crude Culture and City Radius mechanism in Civ IV makes that a problem. For me.

I don't know how autonomous the Kilwa Sultanate's subjects were, but cities that historically were semi-autonomous certainly already appear in the game. For a good portion of their existence in the game, civilizations like Italy, Greece, Maya and Mongolia were nowhere near as centralized as the game portrays them. That's alright, of course, because it's a game.

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

lol duh

 

[Linkman226]

Nope. Not with or without my EDCNs modmodmod.

Well, whatever the name is in your modmodmod, it doesn't really change as flexibly as it would in real life. The bottom line is, civilizations, not polities or states or whatever.

Do you have a good idea for an alternative name in that case? I will add it to EDCNs if you do.

Nope. The ones you have seem just fine IMO.

The crude Culture and City Radius mechanism in Civ IV makes that a problem. For me.

The one thing Civ V got right. This is definitely moddable into Civ IV tho. In fact it's been done, for the most part, by the wonderful Afforess as the "Realistic Borders" feature of his Rise of Mankind mod.

There certainly isn't a Swahili civilization in the game.

Ooh you just get wittier and wittier don't you

 

[giant49er]

I think that Oman would be better than the Swahali. And there goals would probably be similar (gold, control East Africa, trade, beating up Portuguese).

 

[Askiya]

I think that Oman would be better than the Swahali. And there goals would probably be similar (gold, control East Africa, trade, beating up Portuguese).

Oman would be more appropriate as an Arabia DCN, and wouldn't cover the entire timescape of the East African city states.

 

[giant49er]

and wouldn't cover the entire timescape of the East African city states.

True, but neither would Kilwa.

 

[Wondering Kid]

Umm, guys? Why not both? In any case, the Arabic Peninsula needs a new player. And Africa needs more love. (Besides, with those two; having a Boer Civ might be more relevant)

 

[civ_king]

Umm, guys? Why not both? In any case, the Arabic Peninsula needs a new player. And Africa needs more love. (Besides, with those two; having a Boer Civ might be more relevant)

NE Africa: Egypt
Horn of Africa: Ethiopia
East Africa: Oman/Kilwa
South Africa: Boer
Central Africa: Congo
West Africa: Mali
Maghreb: Moors

Egypt fights with Moors and Ethiopia,
Ethiopia fights with Egypt and Oman/Kilwa
Oman/Kilwa fights Ethiopia and Boers
South Africa fights Congo and Oman/Kilwa
Congo fights South Africa
Mali fights Moors
Moors fight Mali and Egypt

Sounds good to me.

 

[Linkman226]

And to think, RFC only had 4 native African civilizations!

Question: Are the Moors their own civ right now, or a scripted respawn of Carthage?

 

[Wondering Kid]

NE Africa: Egypt
Horn of Africa: Ethiopia
East Africa: Oman/Kilwa
South Africa: Boer
Central Africa: Congo
West Africa: Mali
Maghreb: Moors

Egypt fights with Moors and Ethiopia,
Ethiopia fights with Egypt and Oman/Kilwa
Oman/Kilwa fights Ethiopia and Boers
South Africa fights Congo and Oman/Kilwa
Congo fights South Africa
Mali fights Moors
Moors fight Mali and Egypt

Sounds good to me.

Just good? It pretty much Africa awesome and an active war zone. As it should be.

Only thing I'd really like to bring into consideration (again) is that Congo AI sucks at developing their nation and at city settlement. They should be tweaked in some way so that they are a competent African Civ that could actually do something besides being vassaled. Considering that so far we only have those guys vying for Africa, it is quite sad.

Also, why not implement a mechanic that represents "the Scramble for Africa" in the 1700AD version? This way we'll see Africa fully come into play, as the French will be trying to move into the Maghreb while the British attempt to settle Sudan and uganda while staving of Boer and Prussian attempts to get a foothold in south Africa and Botswana.

 

[mrrandomplayer]

That seems pretty interesting to me. After that, we would only need Polynesia, maybe another India civ like the Maratha, Venice and we'd be done with new civs!

 

[blizzrd]

Question: Are the Moors their own civ right now, or a scripted respawn of Carthage?

The Moors were introduced as a stand-alone civ in v1.10.