New NESes, ideas, development, etc

[Israelite9191]

There should only be stats for them once they become bigger and start to own land like the British and French EIC's for instance. Then they could be made playable.

The Irish are one does operate the colony of Fort Leeuwarden for the Dutch crown.

 

[alex994]

The Irish are one does operate the colony of Fort Leeuwarden for the Dutch crown.

Yes, then please explain the importance of the other four enough to warrant separate stats

 

[Masada]

In general there are a lot of companies, religious organizations, etc. in the world that are important. Still, we can usually safely assume that they exist, and use them as we wish in orders and stories. No need to make any special rules or stats for them.

Correct in part, they are however non-state actors with separate legal identities, which are not wholly state controlled. I'll grant I'm probably the only nation with the ability to create and run proto-joint stock companies but I don't think I should be penalized with uncertainty for choosing to run them. Nor should others be under any illusions as to the relative strength or weakness of the companies.

I'm not worried about what they trade, I'm worried more about their size in terms of assets [measured in ships], income [through trade], market status, offices and agreements. I will grant that only when they become powerful they should be granted stats, I already have a significant presence in the New World through The Honourable Gentlemen’s League however that deserves stats.

 

[Stormbringer]

I totally understand that Masada, I am just skeptical about the need for stats. A major city generates 1 IC, and a small European country has 2-3 IC of yearly income. When you have trading companies that require stats and actually have income and power comparable to countries (BEIC in India being really the only example in OTL) then they should have stats. Otherwise I feel like they are no bigger or more important than the million churches, noble houses, etc. all over the world, and it would seem silly to do stats for all of them.

 

[Symphony D.]

Retroactive deletion.

 

[Masada]

Symphony D. is right. The only one deserving that status at this moment is The Honourable Gentleman's League, which does have power equal to some small European countries [and some large ones] in the naval stakes. It's founded a colony, with minimal state support, it has the vessels to supply and service the colony, does the same for other nations colonies, is able to maintain a strong presence in the region [my ships and the Celtic Bloc having a few tussles] and to boot it can exert control over a new trade route. My finances grew by 1IC, which can only be partially attributed elsewhere, all of my other measures were revenue neutral and the entities are not state owned so I'm landing excise only. That tells its own little story.

 

[alex994]

Symphony D. is right. The only one deserving that status at this moment is The Honourable Gentleman's League, which does have power equal to some small European countries [and some large ones] in the naval stakes. It's founded a colony, with minimal state support, it has the vessels to supply and service the colony, does the same for other nations colonies, is able to maintain a strong presence in the region [my ships and the Celtic Bloc having a few tussles] and to boot it can exert control over a new trade route. My finances grew by 1IC, which can only be partially attributed elsewhere, all of my other measures were revenue neutral and the entities are not state owned so I'm landing excise only. That tells its own little story.

Ah... It seems a bit amazing that a company has been able to do so much in so little time (less than three years). I admit I find the part about having the same naval power as small, and some large European countries frankly a bit incredible. In less than three years, the stock company has managed to raise sufficient amounts of capital to build or purchase so many ships, and increase the quality of their personnel to a level equal if not superior to the navies of European monarchs. And we forgot to mention the other stock companies, all vying for the limited amount of capital available in the Netherlands.

 

[Stormbringer]

And having as large of an economy as Germany... Again, Symphony is right and I think that if they are powerful enough they should have stats. I do not think that any of them, after one turn, should be powerful enough to compare with nations.

 

[silver 2039]

Indeed, most stock companies in this time period would take decades to turn any profit from their colonies, as colonies took ages to become productive and many failed in the early years. At this point its simply not viable.

 

[Masada]

Do you all really want to begin to comment on economic growth in NESing? Nobody should be growing at more than 1%...

Ah... It seems a bit amazing that a company has been able to do so much in so little time (less than three years). I admit I find the part about having the same naval power as small, and some large European countries frankly a bit incredible.

Lithuania-Novgorod has 5 ships, even the super power of the seas Portugal only has 18. It's not hard to believe that the companies could churn somewhere between those two figures in 3 years. Also ask what you could use as a means of buying into the companies? Might it be? Ships? 1 IC can buy you 5 military vessels. Conservatively 25 ships, it's not all that incredible.

In less than three years, the stock company has managed to raise sufficient amounts of capital to build or purchase so many ships

Half the story, there are others means of getting ships and more funding sources have been made available in the course of the update.

and increase the quality of their personnel to a level equal if not superior to the navies of European monarchs. And we forgot to mention the other stock companies, all vying for the limited amount of capital available in the Netherlands.

Granted, but the funding is not that unreasonable not with the manner of the construction of the firms.

How different were the personnel on a merchant vessel and a naval vessel? Press ganging even far later on when the difference between merchant vessels and naval vessels was much more pronounced did very little damage to the overall capacity of naval vessels. The ships officers are admittedly more specialized, but even then any conceivable skirmish in my chosen fields is not going to be against sharply differentiated standing navies, they didn't exist. Really the only specialized military role on the ship would be the gunnery officer, which after a large civil war next door are not going to be hard to find. This is still the age when merchant vessels in all but the safest runs, probably the Baltic at this current moment carried arms. It's not hard to slap a tower fore and aft on an existing ship and arm it, it was fairly common to boot.

Indeed, most stock companies in this time period would take decades to turn any profit from their colonies, as colonies took ages to become productive and many failed in the early years. At this point its simply not viable.

I agree in part. The costs for establishing the colonies are not all that high. The survival rate is poor. But I'm not dealing in what the colonies produce per say... I'm dealing in what they require.

Sorry for keeping it fairly non specific, but I'm not going to spell out my intentions in plain text and write a long justification of why I'm doing what I'm doing suffice to say I'm the Netherlands and a major maritime power, far and above what I would otherwise in OTL at the current moment. I've said my peace on the stats. Nobody seems to disagree on the companies importance or on my choice of indicators.

 

[Israelite9191]

OK, based on what people are saying, for now I will leave 'stats' for stock companies as they are. If in the future we start to see stock companies grow much larger, I will reapproach the issue. If any of you all disagree with this decision, please speak up.

 

[Haseri]

Galactic Civilization II NES anybody?

Real basics: 12 players play the big movers and shakers in the galaxy, anybody elce can make a minor race completely from scratch.

However, I have no galactic map. Anybody who has Twilight of the Arnor and wants to make a (preferably Immence) map with the editor, do so.

However, there is still some work to do on it, so don't expect it until late Jan/early Feb (though a pre-NES may be going up soon).

 

[The Strategos]

Note: In the following examples, numbers are made up for illustrative purposes (though I do favor giving countries more EP with less buying power, for example, a 10 EP budget being a moderately small country).


Trade: The world will be divided into several trade zones defined by geographic and cultural features. Each trade zone will have a set number of eco points which represents the amount of eco points generated by national governments by the trade in the zone. Each country will then have a percentage of this trade in each zone which represents its share in the trade zone. A nation can increase its trade income in two ways, by increasing the overall value of the trade zone, or by increasing its percentage of income from the trade zone.

Example: The Western Mediterranean Trade Zone has a value of 100 EP. France’s percentage is 25% for 25 EP. The WMTZ rises in value to 110 EP, France’s slice rises to 27.5 EP. France takes over some Italian ports, increasing their percentage to 30% of WMTZ, their slice rises to 33 EP.



Mercenaries: Mercenaries are virtually the only way to raise a large professional army in a short amount of time. Mercenaries, however, are not an inexhaustible resource. Each region has a fixed amount of mercenaries. The price of mercenaries follows an exponential curve so that the more mercenaries hired from one region, the higher their price (following the law of supply and demand). As an individual ruler can’t know how many men they hired, it is recommended that in their orders they refer to mercenary units by their price. The lowest price for mercenaries will be 1 EP=5 units of mercenaries.

Example: There are 100 units of mercenaries in Europe. In Turn 1, only 5 EP are used in Europe to hire mercenaries, which buys 25 units of mercenaries (1 EP=5 units of mercenaries). In Turn 2, 50 EP are used in Europe to hire mercenaries, which buys only 100 units of mercenaries (1 EP=2 units of mercenaries).

 

[Lord_Iggy]

I like the trade zone idea.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Note: In the following examples, numbers are made up for illustrative purposes (though I do favor giving countries more EP with less buying power, for example, a 10 EP budget being a moderately small country).


Trade: The world will be divided into several trade zones defined by geographic and cultural features. Each trade zone will have a set number of eco points which represents the amount of eco points generated by national governments by the trade in the zone. Each country will then have a percentage of this trade in each zone which represents its share in the trade zone. A nation can increase its trade income in two ways, by increasing the overall value of the trade zone, or by increasing its percentage of income from the trade zone.

Example: The Western Mediterranean Trade Zone has a value of 100 EP. France’s percentage is 25% for 25 EP. The WMTZ rises in value to 110 EP, France’s slice rises to 27.5 EP. France takes over some Italian ports, increasing their percentage to 30% of WMTZ, their slice rises to 33 EP.

Nice. But don't forget that a nation's contribution to a TZ should be subtracted before calcualting its share. If WMTZ = 100 and France contributes 30 of that amount then it should get 25% of the remainder: 100-30 = 70*.25 = 17.5. Other wise you are double counting. Since I cannot see all your calculations, I may be off base, but in any case you want to be sure that the math is clean.

For example if France had a TZ with N America that no one else had, the value to France would be based on just the value of N America and vice versa. France might get 100% of X and the N American side would get 100% of Y, where X+Y = some calculated total value of the trade.

 

[The Strategos]

Nice. But don't forget that a nation's contribution to a TZ should be subtracted before calcualting its share. If WMTZ = 100 and France contributes 30 of that amount then it should get 25% of the remainder: 100-30 = 70*.25 = 17.5. Other wise you are double counting. Since I cannot see all your calculations, I may be off base, but in any case you want to be sure that the math is clean.

For example if France had a TZ with N America that no one else had, the value to France would be based on just the value of N America and vice versa. France might get 100% of X and the N American side would get 100% of Y, where X+Y = some calculated total value of the trade.

No, you don't need to subtract contributions before calculating its share because I am working from the trade zone down to the individual nation instead of the individual nation to the trade zone back to the individual nation. That of course raises the question of how one determines the original TZ worth and the percentage each nation gets from them. I personally would most likely go by an educated intuition where data is not available. Then again I trust my educated intuition more than I trust other people’s intuition, so I would like to see a better system to calculate these things in place before people other than me use it.

 

[Birdjaguar]

No, you don't need to subtract contributions before calculating its share because I am working from the trade zone down to the individual nation instead of the individual nation to the trade zone back to the individual nation. That of course raises the question of how one determines the original TZ worth and the percentage each nation gets from them. I personally would most likely go by an educated intuition where data is not available. Then again I trust my educated intuition more than I trust other people’s intuition, so I would like to see a better system to calculate these things in place before people other than me use it.

OK, that works for me. The TZ value should then be some incremental amount that is calculated based on the economies of the members, but not tied to those economies. Maybe something like this:

TZ members and their individual economies:
France -- 25
England -- 8
Spain -- 18

TZ base value: 20
add ons:
+20 per nation involved
+distance factor (zero in this case)
+exotic goods factor (zero in this case)
+5 for each nation's economy score over 15
France adds 50 for its size
Spain adds 15
England zero

TZ value = 20+60+50+15 = 145

Then divvy that up by your %.

You percent might be tied to a trade infrastructure stat that is based on harbors, banking, access to "local" markets etc. which represent the nation's capacity to handle trade. More trade routes might increase this capacity (the rich get richer).

 

[Israelite9191]

Mercenaries: Mercenaries are virtually the only way to raise a large professional army in a short amount of time. Mercenaries, however, are not an inexhaustible resource. Each region has a fixed amount of mercenaries. The price of mercenaries follows an exponential curve so that the more mercenaries hired from one region, the higher their price (following the law of supply and demand). As an individual ruler can’t know how many men they hired, it is recommended that in their orders they refer to mercenary units by their price. The lowest price for mercenaries will be 1 EP=5 units of mercenaries.

Example: There are 100 units of mercenaries in Europe. In Turn 1, only 5 EP are used in Europe to hire mercenaries, which buys 25 units of mercenaries (1 EP=5 units of mercenaries). In Turn 2, 50 EP are used in Europe to hire mercenaries, which buys only 100 units of mercenaries (1 EP=2 units of mercenaries).

Hmm, this is a very interesting idea. I hope you don't mind if I use a modified version of this. In particular, I was thinking that it might make sense to group countries in regions (like Europe), but list mercenaries by country of origin, as a reflection of how mercenaries, particularly in the early modern period, had their origins primarily in a few countries (namely Switzerland). Nations wishing to hire mercenaries would be able to do so from countries that are in the same region, perhaps with a modifier reflecting good relations. Off the top of my head, perhaps you could list next to supplier nations those countries with particularly good relations.

Par example : There are 25 units of Swiss mercenaries. During turn one the Papal States chooses to spend 1 eco on Swiss mercenaries. Normally, they would recieve 5 units, but since they have good relations with Switzerland, they recieve, let's say, a 20% boost, and get 6 units instead of 5 units. It's a little more complicated, but I think it would be far more realistic.

 

[Israelite9191]

After talking to Alex I have thought of another possible option for mercenary rules. Basically, instead of hiring the mercenary troops, you hire the captains, who you then fund in their efforts to hire troops. I haven't thought much beyond this though....

 

[Dachs]

After talking to Alex I have thought of another possible option for mercenary rules. Basically, instead of hiring the mercenary troops, you hire the captains, who you then fund in their efforts to hire troops. I haven't thought much beyond this though....

What is the utility here? Are you envisioning players as these captains?