New NESes, ideas, development, etc

[JohannaK]

Japan? I'm in. I want to host a late Sengoku NES or IOT myself someday... I actually have a map, taking the complete version of the last map of that post as a source.

 

[Ninja Dude]

So the old NES in Japan you were running is over?

 

[Bair_the_Normal]

Oh, I would be so in for that.

 

[CivOasis]

Over in the IOT subforum, a few of us were discussing the possibility of making a CFC Model UN game. We don't intend for this to actually be an IOT (it'll eventually be run in an SG, actually), and we'd love to have your participation and help in developing it. Link to our development thread is here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=12465358

 

[Terrance888]

A Model UN ran by NESers and IOTers?

Estimated Lifespan: 22 Hours until Nuclear Hellfire.

 

[kkmo]

So the old NES in Japan you were running is over?

Yes. And while I do take responsibility, keep in mind that I was having to pressure the player base for orders each turn. That is par for the course in modding a NES, but for the last turn, I had only received 2 or 3 order sets. Not much to go on.

I think that by focusing the NES on a more specific period, we can make things more interactive and involved. The actions of one player will effect many players, as opposed to only effecting their own situation, or perhaps the situation of a rival. In LotRS, you had some very interesting religious-military expansion projects. But they didn't really involve another player, for the most part. Similar situation with flyingchicken and the Shimazu. Which is unavoidable, given the circumstances. Birdjag and Thlayli went at it for a while, which was fun, but it was really just the two of them (with the exception of the first turn, which saw plenty of interesting backstabbing... but then I got several drop-outs and no orders given). The Asai were back and forth the Rokkaku, and I don't remember much of a resistance against the Oda from anyone, even though the Imagawa were still in a decent position to continue fighting. I don't think I ever got orders from whoever was playing the Mori Clan, which was such an important player for the period.

Not complaining -- it was the design of the NES. I have learned from it. I think this more focused effort will involve people easily, and keep them on their toes, instead of just an engagement of simple expansion. I also think playing fictional clans in a historical setting will loosen up what is possible.

Japan? I'm in. I want to host a late Sengoku NES or IOT myself someday... I actually have a map, taking the complete version of the last map of that post as a source.

Thanks for the interest. Though I posted maps, and I make use of them, maps are the least of your worries involving the Sengoku period. They don't do much good, beyond serving as a vague reference to where major daimyo lands are in relation to one another. I guarantee you can find several dozen maps of specific dates (common ones 1560, but there are quite a few 1570-1575), and each one will have borders in a different place. 1. Borders were more important from an administrative point of view, rather than a territorial one (a listing or select view of occupied castles, ports, and cities would be far more valuable, which is what I did for my LotRS map), 2. Hard to create borders for retainers -- especially when it was often the case that a retainer of a lord would be rivers away, with the enemy's (or 5 enemies') retainers in-between, and 3. The Ikko-ikki especially complicate borders because they would often construct temple outposts near remote villages, that would later become important -- which, if put on a border, would basically be similar to Lesotho in South Africa, but hundreds of them. But city or fortress-specific maps... now those are useful for a NES like this (like the one of Ishiyama Honganji above). I want to compile a few of them for future use. Excellent in planning tactical maneuvers.

 

[CivOasis]

A Model UN ran by NESers and IOTers?

Estimated Lifespan: 22 Hours until Nuclear Hellfire.

And this is why I'm trying to work out the rules now, instead of as we go.
That way, maybe we'll reach 24 hours

 

[Seon]

And this is why I'm trying to work out the rules now, instead of as we go.
That way, maybe we'll reach 24 hours

That's being too pessimistic, CivOasis

I predict biological warfare holocaust in 24 hours. Nuclear annhiliation in 30.

 

[CivOasis]

You've got to forgive me, I'm running a comedy IOT at the moment, I'm getting used to the worst in diplomacy.

 

[Luckymoose]

I don't think you had a hard time getting players to participate, KKMO. I think you just kept leaving for months on end without talking to anyone, making the prospect of a working NES something that the players just couldn't find logical.

 

[kkmo]

I don't think you had a hard time getting players to participate, KKMO. I think you just kept leaving for months on end without talking to anyone, making the prospect of a working NES something that the players just couldn't find logical.

I think you are mixing up NESes here. I communicated fully with players throughout Lords of the Rising Sun. Actually, Lucky, you were the player I was thinking of who had command of the Mori, and who never once sent orders or even asked questions, only to eventually be replaced by Espoir. I think the farthest you got was posting a sign-up note. I remember it, but do you see me holding some misplaced, obsessive personal vendetta?

I consistently communicated with players on that NES as to what I was doing and where I was, consistently gave extensions, and consistently never got orders even when those extended dates came around. More extensions were given, and so on. But it didn't matter, and I don't hold it against any one. Just made it hard to update in a timely fashion, but I was content to wait and offer forth sparse updates. That ended up not being possible, though, after the last update (a good 8 months after the one before), as I only got two order sets (understandable, given the time). And that was after pestering. Even so, I firmly believe that blame should not be placed on a lack of orders alone.

Addendum: Also, do you really want me to link to all of the NES on this board that have died after 2-3 updates / have taken months to update / have been abandoned after lack of orders / have been abandoned due to lack of interest? You act like it was a personal flaw found only in my abilities. I'm acknowledging it and attempting to remedy the situation by changing the scenario and making it easier to operate. Fun.

 

[Luckymoose]

Meh, say what you will. Everyone else sees the vanishing of the mod as the number one cause of NES death here.

 

[Terrance888]

Personally, a nes living or dying has to do with the community of players and the mod as a whole. An energetic player base can rouse a lazy mod and keep spirits high during the long wait. An energetic mod can keep the pace going and tempt players into going deeper into the game.

 

[kkmo]

Terrance: Well-said, and you adequately explain what I've been trying to.

I'd like to make something that is a bit more fast-paced and compressed, but still well-made. Something that doesn't scare people away, and that also doesn't bog me down. And stories would be nice. I really enjoyed some of the stories and haiku posted during the last Sengoku NES.

 

[Luckymoose]

Personally, a nes living or dying has to do with the community of players and the mod as a whole. An energetic player base can rouse a lazy mod and keep spirits high during the long wait. An energetic mod can keep the pace going and tempt players into going deeper into the game.

An absent mod can do neither.

 

[JohannaK]

Thanks for the interest. Though I posted maps, and I make use of them, maps are the least of your worries involving the Sengoku period. They don't do much good, beyond serving as a vague reference to where major daimyo lands are in relation to one another. I guarantee you can find several dozen maps of specific dates (common ones 1560, but there are quite a few 1570-1575), and each one will have borders in a different place. 1. Borders were more important from an administrative point of view, rather than a territorial one (a listing or select view of occupied castles, ports, and cities would be far more valuable, which is what I did for my LotRS map), 2. Hard to create borders for retainers -- especially when it was often the case that a retainer of a lord would be rivers away, with the enemy's (or 5 enemies') retainers in-between, and 3. The Ikko-ikki especially complicate borders because they would often construct temple outposts near remote villages, that would later become important -- which, if put on a border, would basically be similar to Lesotho in South Africa, but hundreds of them. But city or fortress-specific maps... now those are useful for a NES like this (like the one of Ishiyama Honganji above). I want to compile a few of them for future use. Excellent in planning tactical maneuvers.

Yeah... actually my map includes a few castles which is what I wanted to use as basic unit of territorial control. But there are too few for that... its a kind of dream project I thought of after I drew the map, really.

 

[kkmo]

Eltain figured out a way to trace a good outline based on a map I provided for him. With that blank canvas, I meticulously added castle towns and towns of importance or strategic significance. I also added thoroughfares in operation during that time, prior to Edo Period highways. And then, of course, pre-modern administrative divisions and very loose daimyo land borders. I'm pretty sure I labeled major rivers, as well. The only thing I wish I had been able to include is a relief version.

A huge flaw of 90% of English language maps of the Sengoku period is that they show all castles. For example, a map of 1560 will often show castles not built until well past 1600. Not sure why. Poor, outdated research? Attempt at showing what will come? In some cases, a castle was there, but it was under a different name and/or not notable at the time. Those maps confuse because the locations and names of the castles aren't even relevant until Edo Period fiefdoms. I've also seen others that do the opposite: they'll have a castle that was destroyed in the Onin War on a map of 1580. Makes sense, if those ruins are relevant, but they aren't in most cases, and use a different icon. I guess this is what we get when cartographers use Total War as reference.

Of course, I took my map off the Lords of the Rising Sun thread once that one guy, KNIGHTMAN1 or whatever, started to shamelessly copy and paste all of the stats and info I had spent hours coming up with, never once bothering to ask me if it was all right, and proceeding then to butcher that information without even fully understanding it. I'm willing to share knowledge and resources, but only if used for good.

 

[Terrance888]

He is EEEEEEEEEEEEEVILLLLLLLLLLLLLL?

Jk

 

[JohannaK]

Of course, I took my map off the Lords of the Rising Sun thread once that one guy, KNIGHTMAN1 or whatever, started to shamelessly copy and paste all of the stats and info I had spent hours coming up with, never once bothering to ask me if it was all right, and proceeding then to butcher that information without even fully understanding it. I'm willing to share knowledge and resources, but only if used for good.

Please.

 

[spryllino]

A year and a bit ago, I had a NES going set in the middle of the Peloponnesian War (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=441426) (421 BC being the start date). It died, mostly through lack of player interest and, I think, the fact that I didn't give clear enough guidance on what people were meant to be doing and/or how the rules worked.

However, I do think that the scenario that was reached after two updates is an interesting set-up, and I think that, if there were interest, it would work quite well if it were revived literally where it broke off, with a certain amount of tweaking and clarification, and probably, for the sake of ease, putting Athens under the control of a single player (rather than a group as we had before). I don't think that it would be a problem if we had all new players - although of course the previous players would be gladly welcomed back.

I will revive the NES, then, if I have a definite expression of interest from a good player in Athens and Sparta (and I would welcome competing statements of interest with second choices included), and if I have players for at least some of the other states (especially Corinth, Syracuse, Thebes, Thessaly, Macedonia, Chalcidice).

Anyone interested?