New NESes, ideas, development, etc

Assuming that the Mali could provide the manpower to: 1. effectively colonize the new world (brazil in this case) 2. compete with European powers Then I think your NES would be interesting. I doubt I myself would play in it but I'd encourage you to do some research on the plausibility such a voyages success. The main factor I think would be population size and technology differences between European nations (initially Spain and Portugal) and Mali, and perhaps also political unity and stability (although Spain was by no means a model of unity).

On a similar note I've been thinking about perhaps modding a NES based off of the ATL premise of China colonizing the New World before Spain and Portugal, but still taking into account that it would have been inevitable that Spain, Portugal and the rest of the lot, would have eventually colonized the New World. I know EQ did a NES based off of it (atleast I think it was EQ) and I don't mean to steal his idea. I would also intend to actually write an ATL for it with a decent amount of depth. As it stands I have to do a lot of reading on the subject, but then again I have quite a bit of free time.

EDIT(a lot)

Also I've had an idea of creating a NES much like yours Masada, only with a non-earth map. I think Masada's idea "fixes" an interesting problem with fresh start NESes that Dachs brought up, in that how can one just "start" in a cradle, or world, whatever, and have these cultures spring out of "nothing". I think it is especially problematic when dealing with cradle NESes, because how can one explain the creation of nations/people/cultures/religions that are extremely different from each other, within a very small space. When looking at the world such things simply do not happen. That "realism" note aside I love cradle NESes for that very reason, from a player point of view in terms of writing stories and now from a modding perspective. It is interesting to see such diverse cultures spring up and compete against each other for whatever reason.

I'm torn between perhaps putting more work into developing a ATL for chinese colonization of the new world and developing a decent ruleset, that avoids unnecessary complexity, for a fresh start NES loosely based off of Masada's idea.
One particular idea I'm having some problems with, which may seem quite simple, is whether to have players in a cradle or allow them to see the entire map and select certain points on it that they can start civilizations in and around (commonly referred to as "civilization zones").

The cradle has the obvious realistic problems that I mentioned before but it also accurately simulates the complete unawareness of civilizations to their geographical surroundings until they physically go out and explore it or find that information from other people like themselves. This would mainly be to stop players from metagaming since their nations do not know of existence of anything outside of their specific location.

On the other hand if I simply show the map to players, giving them preset "civilization zones" in which they can start in or around this would obviously avoid the problem of realism that cradles would create but in turn add the metagaming problem.
 
Assuming that the Mali could provide the manpower to: 1. effectively colonize the new world (brazil in this case) 2. compete with European powers Then I think your NES would be interesting. I doubt I myself would play in it but I'd encourage you to do some research on the plausibility such a voyages success. The main factor I think would be population size and technology differences between European nations (initially Spain and Portugal) and Mali, and perhaps also political unity and stability (although Spain was by no means a model of unity).

On a similar note I've been thinking about perhaps modding a NES based off of the ATL premise of China colonizing the New World before Spain and Portugal, but still taking into account that it would have been inevitable that Spain, Portugal and the rest of the lot, would have eventually colonized the New World. I know EQ did a NES based off of it (atleast I think it was EQ) and I don't mean to steal his idea. I would also intend to actually write an ATL for it with a decent amount of depth. As it stands I have to do a lot of reading on the subject, but then again I have quite a bit of free time.

The reason why I chose 1350 was so Mali wouldn't have to deal with Europeans in the Americas. Europe is not suitable for colonizing a continent yet. England and France are fighting the Hundred Years War, the king of Castile has just died, fleets of the Spanish have been destroyed by Edward III, Portugal is always being attacked by Morocco, and Black Death is at its peak in 1350.

Mali right now is at its Golden Age. It controls land equal to the size of Western Europe, and rules over millions of people. When it comes to technology differences Europe hasn't yet developed many of things they used later on, rifles have not yet been created so Europe is on par with most other countries that used firearms, and the caravel which Henry the Navigator and Christopher Columbus used have not been created yet.

As for colonization, not that many people are needed. A very small number of Spaniards actually came to Spain's colonies when compared to the number of natives. All that is needed is enough people to help integrate the natives.
 
Probably the Mali will set up less Disruptive relations, unlike the Spanidards...

For one, they are not extremely fanatical of their religion. (Was it Islam already by then?)

And also, they don't really need that much more gold. (Large mines more available than what america can offer.)

But America does offer good wood and farmland, esp in the Amazon area. Of which Mali lacks. It would be interesting if they are to act ruthless and force themselves in or try to flow in with their merchants, and if they are to share to knowledge or keep it to themselves.
 
Probably the Mali will set up less Disruptive relations, unlike the Spanidards...

For one, they are not extremely fanatical of their religion. (Was it Islam already by then?)

And also, they don't really need that much more gold. (Large mines more available than what america can offer.)

But America does offer good wood and farmland, esp in the Amazon area. Of which Mali lacks. It would be interesting if they are to act ruthless and force themselves in or try to flow in with their merchants, and if they are to share to knowledge or keep it to themselves.

Islam was already there by now, but I am not exactly certain how tolerant they were of other religions. According to wikipedia it was a tradition in Mali to not persecute people of other religions. But Islam was always favored and encouraged.

You can never have too much gold.

The Americas also has lots of exotic food. Like corn, potatoes, common beans, and most importantly chocolate.
 
WARNING
Shadowbound has the attention span of an eight year-old with ADD

I've been bouncing around an idea in my head for awhile is a character-driven storyNES. I dropped it when SteamNES came out, because that was what I'd like to do, and worked quietly on my SpaceNES. But thanks to the wonderful people at NESchat, I've changed course entirely back to this. ShadowNES: The Empty Throne has the vague skeleton of a ruleset now, after a weekend of work when I should've been doing something else.

The storyline of the Empty Throne is pre-developed, and hinges on the King’s illness. Certain quests will uncover more information about the illness, with a standing reward of a noble title and lots of money going to anyone able to cure the King before he kicks the bucket. Foreign empires are sniffing around the borders, while marauding tribes take advantage of the weak central authority to launch raids. The nobility can also take advantage of the power vacuum to increase their own power, take the throne, or break off from the Kingdom entirely.

One thing I specialize in is the creation of open-worlds, having created two for D&D games. In both of them, the party was free to roam about and explore, able to change the course of a plot that advanced with or without them. This is an idea I am trying to recreate with The Empty Throne.


************************************

Name/Player:
Reputation:
Prowess:
Cunning:
Charisma:
Will:
Destiny:
Traits:

Character Creation

When creating a character, on entering the game for the first time or after your previous character dies, you have 12 experience points, or XP, to work with. Each experience point can be spent to increase one of your stats, which are Prowess, Cunning, Charisma, Will, and Destiny, by one. They can also be used to purchase traits. Stats can be raised easiest at character creation, but certain traits cannot be taken after your character enters the game.

Name/Player: ???/NPC
Reputation: 0
Prowess: 1
Cunning: 1
Charisma: 1
Will: 1
Destiny: 1
Traits: None


Name: Names have power. The True Name of a being describes its very soul, all that it was to begin with and all it can be at the end. Few know their True Names, however, and most refer to themselves by given names, placed by mortals upon mortals.

Reputation: A name carries with it a reputation, for good or ill. Reputation is a stat from 0 to 5, with one or more adjectives in parentheses. These describe how well your character is known, and just what others think of you.

Prowess: The riddle of steel is that it isn’t steel that’s strongest; it’s the flesh behind it. Prowess is the skill of a character in physical combat, their ability to fight off foes and champion their cause with arms.

Cunning: Discretion is the better part of valor. It is simple thing to outfight a foe, but outwitting them is often easier. Cunning lets your character avoid fights and complete their goals at less risk to themselves.

Charisma: Certain men are born to lead others, just as there are always those who will follow. Charisma lets your character persuade NPCs to believe and support him.

Will: The strength of your belief can drive you to succeed, even when you have no reason to. Will is the mental fortitude of a character, stopping them from running or doubting themselves and serves as the foundation of magical strength.

Destiny: When all else fails, there’s the irrefutable proof that your character is meant for something greater than a normal life. Destiny is not like other stats, it can be permanently expended improve your chances of success, and it will automatically be used to prevent your character from dying. Destiny can only be regained by performing incredible deeds.

Traits are acquired or inborn talents that are in addition to your stats. They open up other options in the game that aren’t available to a character that’s simply a bunch of high numbers.

Example Traits:

Nobility
Your character was born into a noble house. Rules on founding or joining a house can be found under the nobility section.
Cost: Special
Can only be taken during character creation.

Royal Blood
Your character has an acknowledged claim to the throne, and is a cousin, niece, or nephew to the king through a legitimate marital tie.
Requirement: Nobility
Can only be taken during character creation.
XP Cost: 2

Royal Bastard
Your character has an unacknowledged claim to the throne, and was born out of lawful wedlock.
Can only be taken during character creation.
XP Cost: 2

Elf-Friend
Your character can walk among the deep woods and avoid being turned into a badger, and find the hidden refuges of the wood elves. Though bereft of much of the power wielded by the distant or dead Elven Empires, they still have secrets and magic at their disposal.
A character cannot take both Elf-friend and Known to Goblins
XP Cost: 2

Known to Goblins
Your character is known and respected by the hobgoblins, either as a worthy enemy or as someone they can do business with. They usually don’t try to enslave you when they meet you.
A character cannot take both Elf-friend and Known to Goblins
XP Cost: 2

Wizard
It’s a dangerous thing, to dabble in the True Art. You’re either confident or desperate, and draw on the secrets of the ancient world regularly. Others fear you for your power, but it gives you insight that they do not. You can spend an action point to ask one question of the mod every turn, which will be answered truthfully. A more specific question will get a more specific answer. However, you cannot look into the future.
Requirement: One of the Magical [Prowess, Cunning, or Charisma] traits.
XP Cost: 3

Magical [Prowess, Cunning, or Charisma]
Your character knows the arts of magic, of how to bend the natural laws into a form more convenient for the task at hand. You can substitute half of your Will score for one of Prowess, Cunning, or Charisma.
This trait can be taken multiple times.
XP Cost: 3

Demon Summoner
To someone who abandons superstition, demons are easy to control. They’re easily manipulated into giving oaths of service, often for nothing more than the right to walk the earth. The summoner can spend 2 action points to create a demonic Follower, with a number of XP equal to his Will score. The follower has no need of a loyalty score, and will remain faithful to the wizard until he is banished or dismissed. The summoner must expend an action point every turn to maintain the demon, but it is able to act independently, with no limit on distance. He can summon a different demon each time. He can summon multiple demons at once, the only limit being his action points.
Requirement: Wizard
Cost: 4 XP

Faustian Pact
The Wizard forms a permanent bond with a powerful demon, which agrees to serve the wizard for the duration of his mortal life in return for certain… benefits once that comes to an end. The wizard creates a new demonic follower, with a number of XP equal to his Will Score +10. This follower can be summoned as normal, but the extra XP cannot be respent to summon a different demon. The Wizard can take this trait multiple times.
Requirement: Demon Summoner
Cost: 5 XP

Arcane Duelist
Opening up to True Art bears its risks, and the least of them is those that are simply mortal. You’re able to confront other mages through the realm of magic, fighting them in both the physical world and the mental one. If another character has one of the Magical traits, you can use your own Will stat in any conflict against them, instead of Prowess, Cunning, or Charisma.
Requirement: One of the Magical [Prowess, Cunning, or Charisma] traits.
XP Cost: 5

Dirty Fighting
There are smarter ways to fight than those taught in fancy halls and tournaments. These are tricks with knives, feints, and misdirection that few live long enough to see. You did, and you’re able to take advantage of them to turn them against proper fighters. You can add half your cunning score to your prowess, though this can’t increase your “effective” prowess above 10.
XP Cost: 4

Attribute Increase
Through study, training, or simple experience you’ve been able to improve yourself. You gain an extra point to one of Prowess, Cunning, Charisma, or Will.
Cost: 2 XP

Traits and stats would be increased by XP. Stats would be easier to increase at character creation, while certain traits could only be purchased at character creation. I haven’t assigned a cost to most of the traits yet.

Experience points, often abbreviated as XP, are used to purchase new traits. XP represent your characters knowledge and skill. They are acquired through story-writing.

***********

Gameplay

ShadowNES: The Empty Throne is divided into turns, each lasting ten days. During this time period, players are able to spend action points, which represent an investment of time on some task, such as traveling. Players receive three action points each turn, they can carry over one of these action points to the next turn.

An action point can be used to:
1) Investigate a quest
2) Perform a quest
3) Activate a trait
4) Travel a single movement radius (found on the map)
5) Fight another player
6) Manage estates or troops

A Quest is a location or event on the map. It can be a location, such as a dwarven ruin, or an event, like a Lukin raid. Quests offer story opportunities, loot, and the opportunity to drive along the main plot or a sub-plot.

Characters can investigate the quest, by scouting out the site or gathering rumors about the event before they move to it. Investigation allows you to better assess the risks involved and possibly approach the challenge from a better angle if you have the necessary abilities.

When a character performs a quest, they send orders on how they approach it. They could train villagers in how to fight against brigands, or they could hunt down the bandits themselves. Certain ways will be easier for different characters, as they have different abilities.

For various reasons, players can come into conflict.

Nobles, and other individuals that own castles and fiefs, are able to manage them when inside them. Wealth that no member of the house orders to be spent will be banked. If the orders of two members of the house conflict, then those of the one that contributed the most XP to the house will usually be followed.

****
Nobility acts as a game within a game. When a player takes the Nobility trait, they can choose to contribute XP to their Noble House, sacrificing some of their personal power but building up a force of supporters. Multiple players can contribute to a single Noble House, with the first player becoming the “founder”.

A single XP can purchase the following.

1) A castle (2 XP)
2) A fort with a garrison of 40 men-at-arms
3) 100 men-at-arms
4) 10 knights
5) A lightly defended fief
6) Two improvements for fiefs and castles

A castle consists of a heavily fortified stone fortress, built to withstand long sieges. It also comes with a small fief around it, but the income is devoted entirely to maintaining the castle. A castle does not come with a garrison, but even a few men are able to hold it against many times their number.

A fort is a wooden fortress, typically built to defend a fief or important chokepoint. It comes with its own garrison, who patrol the surrounding area. The garrison can be removed from the fort.

Men-at-arms are household, professional troops retained by the nobility even in peace-time. They are armed with swords, spears, and bows, and typically have some light armor. They are dependable troops that often form the core of any army raised by Midland, backing up the knights and keeping levied troops in line.

Knights are heavily armored members of the lesser nobility, with a lifetime and small fortune invested in learning to wield a lance and ride a horse. They typically rule over lesser fiefs of their own, which they rely upon to outfit them with their armor and mounts.

Fiefs are the main source of income for the nobility, with peasants giving a lord a portion of their crops and income in return for protection. A fief has a 30% chance of generating a point of wealth every turn, odds that can be increased by improvements.

Improvements increase the income of a fief or the fortification of a castle. Each improvement to a fief increases the odds of generating a point of wealth by 10%. Each improvement to a castle improves its ability to withstand a siege. Improvements also increase the number of troops that can be raised.

Wealth is generated by fiefs, and can be spent on the following. It can be banked. An XP invested into a House after the game starts can be spent as a one-time income of 3 wealth.

1) Building an improvement on a fief or castle.
2) Recruiting 25 men-at-arms
3) Building a fort (2 wealth)
4) Attracting the services of 5 knights

Fiefs and castles can be levied. Fiefs can contribute 200 conscripts, with an additional 50 for each improvement. Castles can contribute 100 conscripts, with an additional 100 for each improvement. Conscripts are peasants pressed into service and given basic training with simple weapons. They form the bulk of any war-time army, relying on numbers and the support of better trained troops to overcome an enemy. They have poor morale, and work best with a charismatic leader.

New fiefs can be created if land is cleared out of the wilderness, or captured from another nation or house. If unclaimed land is taken, then wealth must be spent convincing peasants to move to the fief. If land is seized, then typically it will need time to be secured before it can start contributing wealth, and the former owner may be angry.

What’s a follower? I’m a lazy ass and I’ll write it later. They’re basically lesser characters, bought with wealth or XP. Instead of charisma they have a stat called loyalty, which is how loyal they are to their employer, and how hard it would be to convince them to work for someone else.
 
I'd play that in a heartbeat.
 
If you wouldn't mind a player that will disappear in late October, then I'd be all for this.
 
That sounds like a cool NES and I'd definatly play if you decided to start it.
 
The reactions here are interesting. In maritime terms the route from Mali across to Brazil isn't all that hard, the prevailing winds are very favorable, sufficiently so that Brazil was discovered by accident. It wasn't uncommon for Portuguese ships to miscalculate their approach around the Cape of Good Hope or from the European only to end up hitting Brazil's coast. If we want to look at Columbus's route by way of comparison, you'll find that the winds were less favorable and the result was less sure. In all honesty I don't believe that the maritime equipment would have been as important when the route was considerably easier. But that's just me and my studying.

Yeah its not that hard, but the Malians would land on the coast of Brazil, find nothing of value, and not come back. There were after all lots of easier targets and projects to do in West Africa. Also while the wind patterns do make sailing easy, you have to do the rather counterinituitive sailing south first then swinging in - this is hard to work out unless you circumnavigate Africa first, and why would Mali need to do that when they were plugged into the wealthy islamic land trade routes.

The thing about Columbus was not so much the land, but the fact he discovered gold right off the bat, and that other europeans could see that the sugar plantations of Marconesia could be easily transplanted to the New World. The Africans won't do the former and lack the interest or skillset for the latter.

A more plausible Mali in the new world would be one like das's scenario for Thlayli's NES - a crusader Egypt and Red Sea would cut West Africa off from easy access to the Islamic world, and they'll probably try and go round Africa by sea and discover Brazil on the way back. Since they'll be making round Africa trips often they'll set up some bases to supply ships, eventually run into the crops and gold of the Brazilian inlands and then start a sustained exploration effort of the New World (though Europeans will be turning up as soon as they catch wind of the gold and silver, and Mali will have neither the manpower or shipping stores to keep them out completely)
 
Disenfrancised said:
Yeah its not that hard, but the Malians would land on the coast of Brazil, find nothing of value, and not come back.

I know. I still haven't thought of a reason why anyone would be interested in that part of the world. On that same strand of logic:

Charles Li said:
But America does offer good wood and farmland, esp in the Amazon area.

No it doesn't, the Portuguese were less than happy about the quality of wood available and the region did not make for good farming with the crops that Malinese would have had.

Cynovolans said:
The Americas also has lots of exotic food. Like corn, potatoes, common beans, and most importantly chocolate.

All of which are a not inconsiderable distance away.

Disenfrancised said:
Also while the wind patterns do make sailing easy, you have to do the rather counterinituitive sailing south first then swinging in

They would have had to have run with the wind in any case, it doesn't look like they had the capabilities to work into the wind - which I didn't find likely in any case. I considered it relatively likely that they would have completely missed Brazil and died. The discovery part is possible if not probable at least.
 
I know. I still haven't thought of a reason why anyone would be interested in that part of the world.

If they want to find gold all they have to do is search in the Brazilian state of Bahia, which can be accessed by the coast or the Amazon river. Even if they just see people that would be enough to encourage them to search the place. I have it where when they land in where Bahia would be today, they see a tribe with a few copper weapons, the Malians demand to know where to get copper as it is the third most valuable object in the Mali empire, after a short battle and the native americans witnessing gunpowder take them to mines where the Malians discover gold as well. (But sadly the tribe is useless after that and then becomes slaves.)
 
The Tupi et al. were not in the Copper Age, insofar as we know. Nor was anyone mining that gold.
 
Really? Then I guess I'll just find another reason why they're in the Amazon, would the slave trade be worth it?
 
Eh, most (>95%) of the people die off as soon as you get close enough to enslave them. I would say you really would be best off just having them establish waypoints on the trip southwards (after all, the "ends of the ocean" do include the Southern Atlantic; they could hit America on southwards voyages as Dis and Mas have suggested). Later, exploring around a bit, they notice more useful things.

Keep in mind that Malian colonies probably won't be as extensive as the European populations in La Plata or North America; those were quite dependent on Europe bringing its plant and animal population along with it. The European species flourished in these areas, and so did the European settlers. Mali won't have quite the same advantage.
 
Well now it seems more like just Malians just coming to Americas find a local chief promise him power and glory, then help him create a nice little kingdom and as he finally catches a foreign disease and dies take the kingdom.

I'm thinking about just leaving the Amazon alone for now and leave it to whoever takes Mali to decide what to do with it.
 
This would be the gold it took the Portuguese two centuries to find right?

That's because the Portuguese focused more on colonizing the coast and preventing the French from getting any land, and they also had to focus on numerous wars during the whole colonizing and exploring Brazil age.
 
The Portuguese actually colonized the coast to prevent the French (and Dutch) from getting that land in the first place -- war spurred colonization, it didn't take up energy from it.
 
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