New NESes, ideas, development, etc

[Dachs]

Plenty of these things are fragmented pseudo-polities. Like basically all of Western Europe, Alodia, that Chola thing, and so forth. Stop drawing conclusions without stats. And just because some area doesn't have a color doesn't mean people aren't doing stuff there. For instance, the Chao Phraya valley is full of various Thai-ish peoples who just haven't politically organized. Same with the Picts, the Irish, the Saxons, the various Norsemen, the utterly confusing jumble that is the Pannonian Plain, and so on.

 

[North King]

By amalgamating those into a single entity on the map you're making it unnecessarily confusing. A map should be an aid to understanding, not a hindrance.

 

[Dachs]

They are single entities - they're just extremely decentralized, or otherwise barely capable of acting as a single organized state for various other reasons. The map isn't the only tool for understanding the setting, and was never meant to be. I don't understand why you two are ripping me a new one over not being able to understand internal political details about various polities on the map from just the map. Wait until the stats come out, then whine.

 

[North King]

Amalgamating "decentralized entities" seems highly suspect; by putting them on the map in the same form as everything else you're implying they can act like larger states to one degree or another. I refuse to believe that somehow every single minor state decided to join in little leagues with its neighbors that happened to be of uniform size across three continents. Minor states do not usually "decentralize"; they just remain minor states.

I mean, seriously, if you're just trying to go for "playability", I guess I understand that. But please stop implying that everyone else is ******** for inferring things from the sole bit of information that you released.

 

[Thlayli]

I sort of feel how NK feels, but less snarkily. I will contentedly play your creation and await stats. But I like a good internal demarcation as much as the next guy.

 

[Matt0088]

I'd agree with NK and Thy here, but it's not like my opinion means much here.

On the otherhand, the two-pixel coastlines are just...awesome. Look at N3S - III Kraz.

 

[Kraznaya]

It's easier to distort the shape of a coastline when you can say the distorted version is canon and therefore not distorted.

 

[Dachs]

Amalgamating "decentralized entities" seems highly suspect; by putting them on the map in the same form as everything else you're implying they can act like larger states to one degree or another. I refuse to believe that somehow every single minor state decided to join in little leagues with its neighbors that happened to be of uniform size across three continents. Minor states do not usually "decentralize"; they just remain minor states.

I mean, seriously, if you're just trying to go for "playability", I guess I understand that. But please stop implying that everyone else is ******** for inferring things from the sole bit of information that you released.

You're overreacting. The reason they look like that is because I elected to use single-pixel borders, partly for aesthetic reasons and partly because borders larger than that decrease accuracy. Mostly the former. I can't very well use the same borders for internal demarcations as for external ones, can I? The mind boggles at how wars would be represented. Anyway, I couldn't think of a solution in the short term, so I ignored the question altogether.

You are similarly overreacting to the size and location of the territorial agglomerations. Playability was always a secondary or tertiary concern. The reason they are the sizes they are - and frankly, if you think that they are of similar size all across the board, you should put your contacts back in - is because that's how stuff ended up in the outline I wrote up. A century prior, I daresay things would have looked even more uniform and not to your liking - no Thraikian or Mysian kingdoms (so the Mak-Pisidia-Perseid-Egypt split was much more even), a stable three-way split in Britain, comparatively weaker Yang and Liang states in China, independent Marathi nonsense in India, a very young Pala state that was just barely beginning its expansion through the Gangetic Plain, and so on. The only place playability comes into things is in terms of permanent NPCs and stuff I choose not to show on the map at all, like, for instance, the stuff that is where Srivijaya would normally be, and I freely admit that the main reason that stuff doesn't show up is so Masada or Kraznaya or NinjaDude or whoever wouldn't be able to go off and masturbate by himself (and in so doing suck up my semi-valuable time in updating for whatever they're doing). Believe me, there is not a whole lot of equality of opportunity in this NES's setting. And it'll stay that way so long as competent people play the majors instead of pissing away their useful skills on backwaters or on wildly improbable semi-anachronistic revolts.

And I'm not responsible for you jumping to conclusions, whether they are relatively innocuous (like the accusation of play balance overturning historicity) or borderline offensive (like the accusation that I'm implying that people who disagree with me or who have inferred things incorrectly based on limited information are ********). Well, I guess I am, because I didn't finish everything at the same time, but it's a little disappointing to see that you assumed that I had made a map geared toward play balance instead of the real point of alternate history, which, as we all know, is to pull strings and get a favored group (gogogogo Yuezhi!) into a position of ahistorically great power.

The whole reason I posted anything in this thread was to get constructive criticism, after all, so it's not like I'm angry about people having the temerity to say that they have a problem with the way I'm doing things. I had thought it would've centered on the rules, but this is fine.

I sort of feel how NK feels, but less snarkily. I will contentedly play your creation and await stats. But I like a good internal demarcation as much as the next guy.

Mhm. I'll probably add one-pixel exact internal political borders in white, or something. Probably means changing around a few polity-colors on the map itself, but nothing major.

 

[Azale]

I dunno, some of these countries are just...wait for it...PANORMUS.

I'm wary on the prestige meter. I would probably consider keeping it secret to prevent OOC actions, but I suppose I trust you to slap down on such tomfoolery pretty quickly anyway.

 

[Thlayli]

Azale, I am so glad we're friends.

Also, I think the original reasoning for 2-pixel borders was that so internal demarcations, vassal states, and other arrangements could use single-pixel borders. At least that's my understanding of it.

No disrespect, Dachs. But I'm hoping for an eco-bonus because as we all know, black earth (aka fertile) is way more productive than the perpetual global permafrost that covers the traditional maps.

 

[Kraznaya]

Dachs your allusions to whatever the hell is going on in defense of your map would be easier if you just told us whatever the hell is going on. :3

 

[Cobalt Command]

Okay, so I'm just going to put this out there, if ANYONE starts an NES with Sweden in it from now on, I'd like to call it in advance; if that's okay.

EDIT: Just for the next time, though.

 

[Terrance888]

Hey guys, I had a brainstorm for a neat economic stat makeup.

Gold and EP.

Gold represents money from taxes, but also money and wealth from raiding, tithes, and trade routes.
Gold, like in other NESes, is described in amount. However, this is different as seen:
Total (Taxes/Trading)- Banked + Raided income
Example: 2500 (2000/500)- 500

EP, however, represents the amount of extra work you country produces. This work can be anything from high-tech computers to a few extra bushels of grain. The key part is extra. EP is everything that your people produces that is just barely nessessary enough to keep the status quo. You cannot bank EP, or trade ep, but not spending some will allow your farmers to buy a new plow, blacksmiths to get new apprentices ect. You can also choose to convert it to gold by a random factor or try to increase economy faster with projects.
EP stat will also show the economy
Number of EP - Economic Growth Factor (Averaged for the last few turns, so not saving any EP one turn won't serious affect your growth unless you were in a Golden Age + Boom)
Ex: 7 EP - Stable

Manpower, not only is this stat used for war, but also used for taxes gained, and can be sacrificed for projects through force-working or sold into slavery. There is two stats, one describes the manpower availible to the nation, the other describes those, specifically the unemployed and the warrior castes, available to the military.
Manpower will be described with words.
Total Manpower/Readily Militerized Manpower/Growth of Manpower
Large/Large/Stable

Therefore, the economic structure of a few countries:
Carthage
4000 (1000/3000)- 1000
8ep/Booming
Small/Small-Steady Decline

Rome
3500 (2250/1250)- 1000
12 EP/ Steadily growing
Medium/Large-Steady Growth

Descriptions
These descriptions for Economy is for a moving economy, if an economy is static, it is in the next section. Economy grows when some EP isn't spent. Economy stall when few, sometimes none is spent. For some economies, it can go bad if they suddenly spend all their EP from barely spending any,
Depression-Deep Recession-Recession-Crash-Fast Decline- Steady Decline- Slight Decline- Steady- Stabilizing- Slight Prosperity- Steady Prosperity- Growing Prosperity- Great Prosperity- Booming- Golden Age

These are for a stationary economy, as in they spent all, or overspent, their eps. Some economies can go stationary even if not all EPs are spent, but genearlly: don't spend all= economy going up. Save only a little, and it stalls, spend it all, or deficiet spend and it will start going down. Saving again is the only way to stop this.
Stagflation-Stagnant-Crunched-Steady-Stable
Economy is needed to build projects, weapons for units, or to allocate, along with gold, to research. Therefore, try to keep it growing, and if you need to spend more, try not to go from saving 6 to saving only 1 or 2.

 

[Daftpanzer]

@Charles it looks good . I like the EP/Gold divide. But I assume each EP is worth a lot of gold?

Also, umm, does this look interesting to anyone?:

Spoiler map zoom :

I'm working on an idea that has turned into a mash-up of basically all of my other NESes ever. As you see there are sprite graphics and risk-style territories, to go with some NES-style stats and eco point spending, and there will be splitting and evolution of civilizations kinda similar to NESlife and my 'alternate timeline experiment'. I'm copying the 'e' system from SLYNES, so there are strict rules for points spending, but no other fixed rules exactly, just a mix of dice rolling and enlightened godmodding.

Maybe I should point out that territories and resources can be shared by different factions. The territories represent whole geographic/climate regions. If they are controlled by a single faction, then some nice coloured borders will appear. Also the map is abstractified, by which I mean it only shows what territory things are in, and not exactly where they are. They can be anywhere within that territory, it doesn't matter for game purposes. The number of cities/temples/forts etc is shown as little icons above the territory name, with the colour of the owning faction.

Barbarians are everywhere at the start, and the hopefully in the icons you can see the different ethnicities too.

I'm thinking of a late stone age start, three cradles on three continents (earth remixed): one afro-caucasian rampage, one asian enlightenment, and one american isolation. Indo-nesians have ended up on all three main continents. Giant animals roam the land.

Tech levels make up most of the stats. Army size, population etc will all be obvious on the map.

For once I actually intend to solo-playtest this extensively. Its taking a while though, especially since I just redrew the whole map at 150% scale. I got to the iron age in one test game, then Thlayli pointed out that it all looked horribly messy and cramped and confusing. Hopefully the map will be big enough now.

Spoiler Unfinished Rules / mental masturbation :

Spoiler Economics :

Overspending:

You are allowed to overspend by a few 'e' and go into debt (a 'negative treasury'). The safe limit is the negative of your Economics level. Being in debt hurts your prestige a little, and there may be some small debt payments eating into your income, but otherwise you can carry on as normal. However, if you get below the negative of your Economics level, you are risking economic collapse and all kinds of difficulty.

Underspending:

Obviously, the opposite of being in debt is having a surplus, which increases your prestige and stability. It also greatly improves your resistance to random disasters and the like. If the 'e' left in your treasury at the end of a turn (after spending, before new income is recieved) is equal or greater than your Economics level, then you receive this bonus. As such it becomes progressively harder to get, as your Economics level increases - greater expectations are made.

Getting 'e':

Tax: 2e to build a settlement, giving 1e or 0.5e per turn, depending on the terrain.

Settlements can be built for 2e, or they will naturally multiply over time. If you want to colonize a new territory, you must have reasonable access to it, and preferably a military unit there already - you do not need to exterminate the natives, though obviously they may not be happy to see you. The actual tax income and the chance for free new settlements depends on the terrain - grassland, hills and forest will give 1e tax per settlement, the rest will give 0.5e.

Aside from tax income, settlements also allow more simultaneous building of units in a territory (default is one per territory where you have any buildings/units), more (asbracted) defensive militia, and more 'cultural inertia'. Only settlements can spawn Trade Centres and Holy Cities. Settlements could also support Industry later in the game. In addition, settlements can become Great Cities, which provide three times the normal tax income, and greatly enhance your prestige and cultural influence. This requires a long period of wealth and stability.

Settlements can be problematic - the more settlements in a territory, the more tech levels they need to both function properly and not rebel. Note that the settlements of all other factions in a territory will count towards these limits, though the faction with the most settlements will face the most problems. If a settlement is captured in war it may retain its original culture for a long time (as shown by the colour of the central dot), and you may even find yourself being assimilated by the people you conquered.

If settlements become 'disrupted' for whatever reason, they give half the usual income, or no income at all (I don't want to deal with values less then 0.5e), and will also produce disrupted units if called upon. Disrupted settlements will usually recover as soon as conditions are set right. Settlements can also be enslaved and used to work resources, or can sometimes turn into 'nomads' and be moved around, again giving half the usual income while roaming.

Resources: 2e (or one 'slave') to develop a special resource, giving 1e per turn.

Usually, a resource will always give a base level of income (1e/turn) to one of the factions in a territory, without investment. Resources can also be developed further, at a cost of 2e a time, or with the enslavement of one settlement (either your own people, or someone else's). There is a standard income of 1e per turn, per development level - each level is shown by a little icon next to the resource. You can attempt to develop resources anywhere that you think you can get away with, though there is an element of risk involved for faraway places. Different resources can have behind-the-scenes effects on your faction and those you trade with.

The maximum level of development for each individual resource is capped at one of your appropriate tech levels, whichever is highest - Economics tech will cover all resources, but Engineering can also be used for things dug out of the ground, and Infrastructure for crops and livestock (excludes wild game). For example, with Infrastructure level 2, you could invest in two developments of a 'wheat' resource. A single resource can be shared by different factions, but the development levels of all factions - either slaves, or normal investment - all count towards the development cap, for whoever is trying to develop that resource further. Thus, a faction with a high Economics/Infrastructure/Engineering could make some kind of deal to develop the resources of a less advanced faction.

Note that developed resources can become unprofitable for various reasons. They can also be disrupted by enemy forces, as they are generally much harder to defend than settlements. If some of your development levels become unprofitable, this is represented by a different (shrunken) icon. Unprofitable icons can recover naturally, but if they stay disrupted they will begin to disappear randomly, and that investment will be lost. You have the option of bailing out your merchants at a cost of 0.5 per turn, per unprofitable icon, if you think the markets may recover later. Unprofitable icons still count towards the cap on any new development.

Note that unprofitable 'slaves' will either rebel, die, or be moved to another resource, so that they only ever exist in a 'profitable' state.

You should only attempt to develop resources at sea (fish, whales, and oil if you have the Combustion Engine) if you have a port nearby. Slaves will drown at sea.

Trade: highly abstractified!

Basically, if I think your faction has people to trade with, and has more exports than imports, and/or lies on a major trade route, and/or has cunning merchants, then you will get some extra 'e' per turn. There is no negative inverse to this. You can also be lucky enough to get a 'trade centre', which will be a place where traders tend to gather from the surrounding regions. This will add to your trade income, as well as giving you some power to exclude other factions from trade, or show favouritism to others. Trade centres also become places of cultural exchange.

Religion: highly abstractified!

Temples/monuments can be built for 2e. They can be the birthplaces of religions that will spread to other lands, taking your influence with them. Visitors to holy shrines will make donations, and pay for the other essentials of life during their stay. Such bonuses are usually quite small, though if a religion grows big enough, it will spawn one or more 'holy cities' which could become massively profitable, as well as being a great inspiration to your people.

War:

War is definitely expensive, as each unit costs 0.5e in upkeep per turn, and getting reliable income from conquered populations is going to be difficult in this game. Raiding may be an easier way to make money - you can steal some income that the other faction would've received, and disrupt their cities and resources at the same time. You can enslave foreign settlements and put them to work on your resources, Of course, you can also threaten people to exact tribute, and if you have a strong enough military then bullying the 'barbarians' can be profitable.

Spoiler Technology :

Tech Levels:

In this game, your tech levels are also your 'domestic settings'. So the more development you have, relative to the other techs, the more your civilization is focused in that area.

Your Civilization Level cannot be invested in. It is a rough guide to your level of technology and sophistication, and it will increase as your invest in other techs, or when I think is appropriate

The cost to advance a level is [1e x the next level up]. For example, level 2 costs 2e, while level 5 costs 5e. If you have the money, you can try to advance multiple levels per turn, with some risk - only one advancement is guaranteed, though any failed attempts will be fully refunded.

NOTE: additional randomness is incurred if you try to advance any tech much (two or more levels) beyond your overall Civilization Level. This is also my way of arbitrarily slowing things down if people are tech-whoring too much

As for the 'conflicts' between different tech categories, this means as one increases, it is possible that one or more other techs will actually decrease. This is especially true as a tech reaches higher levels of investment.

The Civilization and Tech levels roughly correspond to different historical eras:

Late Stone (1) - Bronze (2) - Iron (3) - Classical (4) - Medieval (5) - Renaissance (6) - Enlightenment (7) - Early Industrial (8) - Late Industrial (9) - Electronic (10) - Modern (11) - Future? (12)

Culture:

Main effects:
* Cultural influence
* Religion effectiveness
* Stability

Minor effects:
* Trading efficiency

Power:

Main effects:
* Prevent rebellions - good chance to control one majority-foreign territory with every tech level.
* Prevent slave rebellions - good chance to control one slave per territory for every tech level.
* Diplomatic efficiency

Minor effects:
* Military efficiency

Conflicts with:
* Enlightenment
* Bureaucracy
* Vice

Military

Main effects:
* Military efficiency

Conflicts with:
* Enlightenment

Bureaucracy:

Main effects:
* Ensure tax income - chance for income loss if number of settled territories is greater than 2x this tech level.
* Bonus income if this tech level exceeds your total number of settlements in all territories - bonus is (Bureaucracy level - total # of settlements). You must have at least one settlement before you can get this bonus.

Minor effects:
* Trading efficiency

Conflicts with:
* Power
* Vice

Enlightenment:

Main effects:
* Innovation - greater chance for free tech levels (excluding Power) and special inventions.

Minor effects:
* Inter-ethnic harmony
* Diplomatic efficiency
* Religion ineffectiveness

Conflicts with:
* Power
* Military
* Economics
* Vice
* Slavery in general

Infrastructure

Main effects:
* Support more settlements per territory - safe limit is equal to this tech level, else there is a much greater chance of disease and disruption.
* Can act as development limit for crops and livestock resources, if higher than your Economic level. Increases the chance of finding new resources of those types.

Minor effects:
* Trading efficiency
* Military efficiency

Economics:

Main effects:
* Optional development cap for all resources
* Trading efficiency
* Increases safe debt limit
* Increases underspend limit
* Increases the chance of finding new miscellaneous resources

Minor effects:
* Seafaring efficiency

Conflicts with:
* Enlightenment

Engineering:

Main effects:
* Can act as development cap for gems/minerals/timber/oil resources, if higher than your Economic level. Increases the chance of finding new resources of those types.
* Siege warfare and Fortress efficiency
* Seafaring efficiency

Minor effects:
* Trading efficiency
* Military efficiency

Industry: (requires Steam Power invention)

Electronics: (requires Computers invention)

Space: (requires Computers and Rocketry inventions)

Vice:

Main effects:
* Small bonus per turn, from bribery and corruption
* Slavery income reliability
* Espionage and subterfuge efficiency
* Ethnic divisions

Minor effects:
* Trading inefficiency
* Diplomatic inefficiency

Conflicts with:
* Enlightenment
* Power
* Bureaucracy

Key Inventions:

This is an arbitrary selection of some important world-changing inventions. They are bestowed randomly, or when I think is appropriate. You cannot get them by request. You can however do your best to make conditions right for them to appear. The brackets here show the ideal age/turn for them to appear, plus any prerequisite invention. NOTE: inventions may actually appear earlier than hinted at, or never at all.

As time progresses, it will be assumed that most civilizations will have the earlier inventions. Else they will be noted as Missing Inventions.

Each of these inventions will boost living standards, have other subtle effects, and may give special one-time bonuses when first gained. Those with inventions will have a competitive advantage against those without, especially with regards to warfare. Though, they are likely to spread quickly after a turn or two. *Some unit types require certain inventions, as listed further down.

The Wheel (1)
Bronze Working (1)
Iron Working (2)
Writing (2)
Horseback Riding (3)
Concrete (4)
Compass (5)
Gunpowder (5)
Printing (6)
Telescope (6)
Steam Power (7)
Metallurgy (7)
Telegram (8)
Explosives (8, Metallurgy)
Combustion Engine (9, Explosives)
Radio (9, Telegram)
Rocketry (10, Explosives)
Jet Engine (10, Combustion Engine)
Nuclear Power (10)
Computers (10, Radio)
Internet (11, Computers)
Lasers (11)
Fusion Power (12, Nuclear Power)
Quantum Computers (12, Computers)

Spoiler Units :

Units:

All units cost 1e to build and 0.5e per turn to maintain. Obviously the later units represent less manpower for more combat power. I am currently too lazy to describe each unit type in detail. Each kind of unit has its time and place, and its ideal terrain, as you've probably seen in plenty of games before. I will just point out a couple of things: All these units are generalised... 'Gun' is my name for all kinds of gunpowder-weapon infantry, going right up to modern day. 'Ranged' represents all slingers, archers and crossbow type weapons. And although Galleys and Sails are available from the start, Galley is generally better in calm (light blue) waters, while Sail resists sinking in stormy seas (dark blue) and can evolve into mighty ships of the line. *Sea units are needed for amphibious invasions, ideally one for every land unit involved, although you can try with fewer. *Same deal for using aircraft on carriers, although Heavy Air and Airship cannot use carriers.

Battle performance is modified by your Tech Levels and Inventions, and many other things outside the stats, like morale and loyalty. If you build alot of a certain kind of unit, or have heroic victories, then you might get special elite/upgraded versions of those units for the rest of the game, which will be noted in your stats, and shown on the map.

I may not have the graphics to represent all kinds of units for all kinds of cultures for all kinds of eras. I will do my best

Land Units:

Light Melee
Heavy Melee (Bronze or Iron)
Pointy Stick
Ranged
Chariot (Wheel)
Light Cavalry (Horseback Riding)
Heavy Cavalry (Horseback Riding, plus Bronze or Iron)
Gun (Gunpowder)
Artillery (Gunpowder)
Launcher (Rocketry)
Armour (Combustion Engine)
Mechanised (Combustion Engine)
Land Drone (Internet)

Sea Units:
Galley
Sail
Steamboat (Steam Power)
Heavy Metal (Explosives)
Escort (Radio or Combustion Engine)
Submarine (Explosives)
Missile Submarine (Rocketry)
Carrier (Combustion Engine, plus Radio)
Sea Drone (Internet)

Air Units:
Airship (Steam Power)
Fighter (Combustion Engine)
Fighter-Bomber (Combustion Engine)
Bomber (Combustion Engine)
Fast Air (Jet Engine or Rocketry)
Fast Bomber (Jet Engine)
Stealth (Computers)
Air Drone (Internet)

Sample Stats:
Harnak

Available Funds: 4e
Unspent from last turn: 1e
Income: 4 resources, 1 trade, 1 religion, 0.5 visitors, 0 tax
Losses: 1e to buy slaves, 1e pillaged by Narudians.
Upkeep: 1.5 (3 units)

Civilization Level: 2
Culture: 4
Enlightenment: 2
Power: 1
Military: 1
Bureaucracy: 2
Infrastructure: 1
Economics: 2
Engineering: 2
Vice: 1

Inventions: BRONZE WORKING, THE WHEEL, IRON WORKING, WRITING

Special: Priestess - Culture / Economics - Current task: Culture.

 

[TheWesley]

Daftpanzer- Seems good to me- primarily because of your record and that a Culture NES sounds appealing.

Charles Li- Sounds good, but shouldn't the state have little-to-no control over E.P most of the time?

 

[Terrance888]

That is why states SEIZE control of EP they need, AKA extortion.

Maybe EP should just be those available, and you can try to seize more to overspend.
- Good point. However, I am taking this like other NESes where EP is what you can spend: in this EP is availiable and extra income of your contry, that you can decide to spend or not. Maybe you will take all extra bushels of grain you produce to feed your growing army, or maybe you can let the farmers keep it and not grow your army in the first place. You can choose to mave blacksmiths use their overtime to make more spears, or you can let them just making whatever random item that goes into their black minds.

Maybe I need to redefine EP. Anyone have a good definition that fits on stuff your country is allowed to use?

-Daft: EP makes about 1000 gold, but that is before I made any other part of the rules.

This is for a NES where every NESer is a King, or a Political Party, ect. If they are a king, they get to choose 2-4 people from the NESer pool to be their successor. If they are a Party, that NESer controls it for that entire era: but there are elections. If the party turns into a single-party government, then it goes into succession again.

I am preparing to have 1-10 year turns, I think that 12 average turns per NESer is realistic, so maybe 3 years per turn? (36 years?)


BTW: NET brainstorming is AWESOME!

 

[Shadowbound]

Daft, anything you do is awesome.

 

[Kraznaya]

Daft that map looks suspiciously like the our world's Middle East.

 

[Kraznaya]

Poor Daft, so constrained by his fans for the success of his eponymous NES...

 

[Matt0088]

I will play in anything Daft mods, period.