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Nicolas Maduro Wins Venezuelan Presidency in Close Race

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by ReindeerThistle, Apr 14, 2013.

  1. ReindeerThistle

    ReindeerThistle Zimmerwald Left

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    Time to bump my own thread again with some more truth squad action:

    Check this out from Venezuela Analysis:


    Here we go again. First, all of the opposition signed off on the tallies at each voting station, then when Capriles loses, they cry "fraud.". Now, guess what's next?


    Capriles withdraws support for an audit!, also from Venezuelanalysis:

    Comments?
     
  2. BirraImperial

    BirraImperial Pura Vida!

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    What I understand is that he states that without the fingerprint records alongside the voter signatures, the audit process won't be transparent, which is kind of obvious since the fingerprints and signatures are proof that the votes casted are legitimate. ¿how is the Government going to prove the votes are legitimate without the fingerprints?

    From CNN Español (Translated with Google Translate): Link

     
  3. BirraImperial

    BirraImperial Pura Vida!

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    Another article from CNN en Español: Link


    Looks like the autocratic measures from Maduro will only increase. Apologies if there are grammar mistakes in the articles, they were translated on the fly from Spanish.
     
  4. ReindeerThistle

    ReindeerThistle Zimmerwald Left

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    Why was this election so close, when Maduro was ahead by double digits in the polls?

    Check this out from The Nation:

     
  5. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    We just witnessed the death of Venezuelan democracy.

    Assembly president Cabello began by not allowing any opposition deputy to speak, so the opposition deputies began a pacifist protest by blowing horns during the procession. Chavista deputies alongside their thug bodyguards then proceeded in beating up 7 opposition deputies. In the background, Diosdado Cabello continued passing legislature left and right that the opposition opposed while those same deputies were being beaten up.

    The opposition deputies have since been banned from the National Assembly.





    Here is a video of it all happening:

    http://globovision.com/articulo/exc...e-ocurrio-en-la-asamblea-nacional-este-martes


    This is the final straw imo. May 1st is supposed to be the date of a huge Capriles organized protest, and what happened today is going to enrage the people.
     
  6. BirraImperial

    BirraImperial Pura Vida!

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    Damn cowards! now they're beating up women too? :mad: I think Venezuelan democracy has been dead for much longer, it just became official with the recent events...
     
  7. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    This is not new. It's a video of a fight deliberately engineered by the opposition, two months ago, as part of a strategy to plunge the country into a civil war. They knew they were violating the rules of the Assembly and would be forcefully removed if they kept impeding the work. They wanted that, and furthermore they wanted to resist eviction and have something to show for it.

    Caballero lost in the ballot box and is still trying to cause the collapse of the country and get power by force. Play Venezuela as if it were another Chile, 1974. It's not. The media working for Caballero is just milking the old incident anew for their next attempt, tomorrow.

    Edit:
    TheLastOne36, when are we going to see any evidence of the alleged "fraud" in the election? It Caballero taking any rabbit out of his hat tomorrow, or is he just republishing weeks old videos of his people trying (and failing) to prevent the national assembly from working?
     
  8. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Is that right?

    Venezuelan lawmakers hurt during punch-up in parliament

     
  9. west india man

    west india man Immortal

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    The first two quotes come from government sources who obviously want to make themselves look innocent, and the third is entirely untrue considering this
     
  10. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    That "obviously" wasn't a media video camera. Nor does it show who started the hostilities or why.
     
  11. ReindeerThistle

    ReindeerThistle Zimmerwald Left

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    Really. This is not journalism. Repeating the same videos and showing more torture porn videos is hardly making an argument in favor of the opposition.
     
  12. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    So in the absence of confirmed voter/election fraud, what we have here is a sore loser and a bad winner.
    Really don't know which is worse. I mean, did we really expect good behavior from a Chavista? But based on what I had read of Capriles he seemed like a pretty decent guy and overall I liked him but dragging this out is lowering my opinion of him. Capriles lost, he should accept that and stop acting as an excuse for Maduro and other Chavistas bad behavior. (Still like him more than Maduro though.)
     
  13. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    Never imagined you to be one for conspiracy theories. His name is Capriles by the way.


    Ask the government. They refuse to recount the votes. All we know is that at 8pm CNE showed Capriles winning most of the provinces (hence why the opposition was already celebrating) and that we had to wait several hours after all the votes were counted for them to announce Maduro as winner at 11:45pm.

    If you are referring to Capriles' binder full of individual frauds, I can look for the interview tomorrow. It's not damning evidence, but the point is that there was enough fraudulent activity taking place to justify recounting the votes considering how close the election results were. Surely that is reasonable, so why is CNE refusing to do a recount, and trying desperately to cover all their tracks?

    And this doesn't excuse any of the Maduro regime's actions since the election.

    Maduro came around in a rueda de prensa with a bunch of Chavista deputies saying that the opposition started the fight and that the Chavistas were the victims, and that the opposition are bloody thirsty violent intolerant thugs. It was a cringe-fest all round.

    All images and videos from today seem to point to the opposite. Admittedly the opposition deputies provoked this with their horn and whistle blowing, but as they argue, that was a pacifist protest at not being allowed to speak in parliament. Imagine if Joe Biden said that the Republicans weren't allowed to speak in the Senate? How can you defend that? Let alone actual physical violence against elected government officials, within a governmental building in session. Let's not even get into the fact that Cabello (Assembly President and #1 douche in the country) was passing legislature while his deputies were being beaten up in front of him.
     
  14. ReindeerThistle

    ReindeerThistle Zimmerwald Left

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    @LastOne: I rhought the opposirion candidate for president was Rodimitsev. No, Radonski. Not Caballero.
     
  15. BirraImperial

    BirraImperial Pura Vida!

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    From your own article:

    It seems like the Chavistas turned violent after the opposition protest.
     
  16. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    I was mistaken on one point: I meant to say that the video was two weeks old (not months, obviously), from the post-election disputes, but it appears that it is indeed more recent. So Capriles seems to be clinging to the strategy of increasing tensions. Too bad, nothing good can come out of that.

    You know I am totally against any automated voting systems. And my main objection is exactly because of this: no matter what the level of auditing available, it becomes impossible to disprove in the eyes of the public (or at least of those who support the loser) complaints of tampering unless all votes are counted manually and the full process witnessed and signed off by representatives of all candidates. It appears that Venezuela does this only for 49% of the cast ballots on each precinct. So for the sake of halving the time needed to know the result, the kind of ironclad trust in the result that prevents post-electoral disputes is thrown away. Stupid, stupid!

    Recounting the votes now, or indeed any time after the day of the elections, wouldn't put an end to those complaints. The next logical step will be complaining that during the time interval in which witnesses have not been available to monitor the stored votes some votes were added/removed/changed/whatever. Even if the votes have some kind of hash or serial number to authenticate and sequence them, technical evaluation of the process is beyond the ability and/or will of many people. Only a simple to understand process fully under watch from witnesses of all candidate lists is impossible to dispute.

    Did the 49% hand-counted votes show a statistically different result from the official results or not? Capriles must have the full results of that count because he had witnesses on every voting station.

    It the result was different then by all means demand a full count. If it was not then a full recount won't change anything unless either:
    1) some bad procedure or statistically bizarre (but possible) variation makes those 49% of the votes unrepresentative of the whole;
    OR
    1) the process through which 49% of the votes were separated and counted under watch from witnesses had been somehow subverted in the first place despite the witnesses in place.

    If the issue is mere statistics and a desire by the loser of wanting a "second chance" through the full count, though luck. That was an issue to raise about the election procedures before the election, not after.

    If the issue is one of wrong or subverted counting process in the first place, evidence is the only thing that can settle this. Led those witnesses who refused to sign the original manual counts come forward and present their charges clearly. If there are any.

    The smart thing to do is to never have any automated component to an election in the first place. And to make sure that every step of the process is witnesses and audited by representatives of all candidates who are able to fully understand and verify it, and sign and publish a report on it in the end. American countries have a very stupid, very dangerous, infatuation with automating elections. Hopefully messes like this one will make some people think again about it.
     
  17. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    You mean it "seems" like violence broke out after the opposition tried to deliberately provoke it. And it quickly escalated to the point where a female "Chavista" supporter was even beaten by "damn cowards".
     
  18. ReindeerThistle

    ReindeerThistle Zimmerwald Left

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    All of Capriles' people signed off on the tallies. Is it that his own people sabotaged him. Prove me wrong. Also, if you look at my earlier post that citedThe Nation Capriles ran as the better Chavista, ergo the deep divide the opposition was claiming is also dubious.
     
  19. BirraImperial

    BirraImperial Pura Vida!

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    Sure, if you call peaceful protest provocation, but nothing justifies beating up your fellow parliamentarians, even if they're from the opposition. And how come we haven't seen any pictures or evidence of PSUV parliamentarians being beaten, other than some vague statements so far?
     
  20. Patroklos

    Patroklos Deity

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    I guess she shouldn't have been showing so much cleavage, she was obviously asking for it right Forma?
     

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