pre-release info Norman - Exploration Age Civilization Discussion

[Acepox]

I think you are right! Having searched the web I found this image on reddit. Seems to be another civ with an identical lighthouse. This might indicate that the Norman version of the lighthouse is the same architecture style as this one from a classical looking civ. So even if Rome had built it, it would have looked the same so I have no idea why Ed called it a "Norman Lighthouse".
View attachment 703557
Verdict: Not a unique building. I'll edit my earlier post. Also just realised that every (?) civ gets two unique buildings so ill mention that too.

This lighthouse is in the desert, surrounded by buildings???

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

This lighthouse is in the desert, surrounded by buildings???

If I remember correctly that tile was also adjacent to the coast, in a larger picture. Maybe the lighthouse now just requires you to at least be adjacent to the coast?

 

[Evie]

That really depends on how precise they want to be (I know, I know, stop laughing at the concept).

After 1707 and the Acts of Union it was Great Britain or the United Kingdom of Great Britain. After the union with Ireland in 1801 it became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and that changed to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in 1927 after southern Ireland became a separate state.

I suspect they will keep the Irish out of it, since they could potentially be a separate Exploration Civ, and just call it Great Britain - 'Britain' without the 'Great' could refer geographically to the entire island as far back as the Bronze Age, but Great Britain is common usage after 1707, which roughly corresponds (well, probably within a century or so) to the start of the Modern Age.

Of course, they could also do what they did in Civ VI and call it 'England' with a bunch of attributes largely from the period when it was Great Britain/United Kingdom and figure no one will be the wiser . . .

Or they'll use the demonym/adjective, not the country name, like they *always* do, and therefore will sidestep the entire Britain/Great Britain/United Kingdom issue because British is in fact the appropriate demonym and adjective regardless of which of those three you exactly mean .

Naming the civ after country names is largely a bit of informal fanspeak that has never found much much formal recognition in the games themselves.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

This lighthouse is in the desert, surrounded by buildings???

It's a good lighthouse, too. No ships have ever crashed near it. Inspired by its success, the government moved all lighthouses inland.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Or they'll use the demonym/adjective, not the country name, like they *always* do, and therefore will sidestep the entire Britain/Great Britain/United Kingdom issue because British is in fact the appropriate demonym and adjective regardless of which of those three you exactly mean .

Naming the civ after country names is largely a bit of informal fanspeak that has never found much much formal recognition in the games themselves.

It is also a potential minefield, because some 'accurate' terms are no longer acceptable to some populations: "United Kingdom" included the subjugated Irish for over a century and there are still some bitter memories of that subjugation. Geographical terminology is generally a lot more 'neutral' and safe.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Its a good lighthouse, too. No ships have ever crashed near it. Inspired by it's success, the government moved all lighthouses inland.

Not one 'ship of the desert' has foundered near it - no wrecked camels in sight anywhere!

 

[Fummy]

In the Gameplay reveal Showcase they show a city transition from Antiquity, to Exploration, to Modern, and what seems to be Norman UBs are shown. They don’t seem very lighthousey

Note, in the previous shot you can see the Norman palace as well as the castle looking building in the lefthand portion of the screen. The larger Classical Temple looking building was not built yet.

I think that "castle looking building" could be their unique wonder the White Tower (aka the Tower of London). looks pretty small but compare to the picture in the OP.

EDIT: nevermind, you can see the actual tower of london in the gameplay reveal opening shot. looks a lot bigger.

 

[Acepox]

It is also a potential minefield, because some 'accurate' terms are no longer acceptable to some populations: "United Kingdom" included the subjugated Irish for over a century and there are still some bitter memories of that subjugation. Geographical terminology is generally a lot more 'neutral' and safe.

Please, spare us the nonsense.

Peoples have had conflicts? Yeah, that's the point of the game.

Carry on.

My own people has been colonized and oppressed by the British. You don't see me calling for Firaxis to dilute and erase parts of British history. Such a misanthropic reflex.

If I remember correctly that tile was also adjacent to the coast, in a larger picture. Maybe the lighthouse now just requires you to at least be adjacent to the coast?

I hope not, that'd be a bit ridiculous. At most, it could make sense if the land tile is surrounded by at least 4 water tiles.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Please, spare us the nonsense.

Peoples have had conflicts? Yeah, that's the point of the game.

Carry on.

My own people has been colonized and oppressed by the British. You don't see me calling for Firaxis to dilute and erase parts of British history. Such a misanthropic reflex.

"Where's the worst Guiness in the world?"
"London, of course, what do you think we'd send the English!"
- conversation with an Irish bartender, 1989.

"Custer Had It Coming"
- bumper sticker on a car on the Kiowa/Commanche Reservation, 1985

Some people are still living the conflicts.

Neither your experience nor mine change that, but you are welcome to believe whatever nonsense you wish.

 

[Ryansinbela]

I had this saying but I’m not sure how much it works.
There is no such thing as a world not affected by its history
Maybe I can phrase it better

 

[El Castellano]

Since most of the discussion so far has been about history and possible civ pathways, I've collated everything I can find about the Normans in game abilities from the dev panel and recent stream so we can discuss them!

Unique Ability:
Normannitas: +1 movement to embarked units, +5 combat strength to land units next to coast, +30% production to White Tower

Unique Traditions:
Servitum Debitum: -2 Gold maintenance for Cavalry units
Palisading: +50% Production to Fortification buildings
Jure: +4 Culture on the Palace, +2 Happiness on City Halls
Familia Regis: +2 Culture for every Tradition slotted in government
Bayeux Tapestry: +4 Culture on settlements not founded by you

Unique Buildings/Improvement
Unknown building 1: Unknown
Unknown building 2: Unknown
Norman Lighthouse: Unknown (ignore this)
or
Unkown improvement: Unknown


Unique Wonder:
White Tower: Unknown

Comments:

• They seem focused on Culture and Military. I wouldn't be surprised if their unique building and wonder were as well.
• They appear to have 5 traditions which is more than the 3-4 of antiquity civs we've seen.
• Keep in mind these are just the traditions that they will keep, we don't know their regular civics afaik other than one will allow them to build the norman lighthouse.
• I have no idea why they get a lighthouse, since I can't find any historical lighthouse this is based on. I suppose its just to help them develop a strong navy (perhaps for future British purposes) and to synergise with their unique ability of being coastal.

Edit: seems that the lighthouse seen in the dev panel is not a unique building.

In addition to all that, it is possible that the cavalry unit with the Norman flags can be one of its unique units. We also know that Normans are a military and diplomatic civilization. At the moment the military aspect is very noticeable. But I see nothing that is diplomatic. Perhaps the part we do not know is focused on having improvements that increase the influence or that are related to relations with the state cities and/or other civilizations.

 

[Ornen]

That's what I meant. Even if the Normans are in the game, that doesn't guarantee William the Conqueror getting in. Elizabeth being a staple English leader to me has just as much of a chance as being associated with the Normans as well.

I think William's getting in since he can do triple-duty for Normans, France, and Britain. Since they're going to have fewer leaders than civs, any leader that can plausibly fit multiple civs has a leg up.

(I also think they'll add Elizabeth when they add Exploration-age England)

Or they'll use the demonym/adjective, not the country name, like they *always* do, and therefore will sidestep the entire Britain/Great Britain/United Kingdom issue because British is in fact the appropriate demonym and adjective regardless of which of those three you exactly mean .

I am banking on Britain/British as well

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I'm guessing that the Normannitas ability will make more sense when we see the Norman UU, which I'm taking to be a Knight replacement, since they have a Tradition that reduces maintenance for mounted units. Crusader, perhaps, given the fresh appearance of Religion in Exploration?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

The Norman UB seen in the French city scene.
It's clearly a Keep of some sort. I initially thought it might be a Motte, given the ovular footprint, but it doesn't feature much elevation, as a Motte's artificial mound would have.

 

[Acepox]

"Where's the worst Guiness in the world?"
"London, of course, what do you think we'd send the English!"
- conversation with an Irish bartender, 1989.

"Custer Had It Coming"
- bumper sticker on a car on the Kiowa/Commanche Reservation, 1985

Some people are still living the conflicts.

Neither your experience nor mine change that, but you are welcome to believe whatever nonsense you wish.

So a couple of jokes from decades ago are your justification to erase American and British history and identity?

The idea that individuals who choose to play a history-based game should expect to encounter historical facts and not throw a hissy fit about it is "whatever nonsense"?

Should we remove any Arab-Islamic, or Ottoman Civ while we're at it because their historic invasions or Mediterranean slave trade offend me as a Christian? Of course not.

Your ideology is absurd and makes no sense, in real life, or in the context of Civilization.

Moderator Action: Please keep this discussion civil. leif

 

[Zaarin]

So a couple of jokes from decades ago are your justification to erase American and British history and identity?

Calm down. No one is suggesting erasing anyone's history, only making it clear that Ireland is not included in the British civilization, which in the context of Civ, which is not built on a deterministic model of history, wouldn't make sense anyway.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

So a couple of jokes from decades ago are your justification to erase American and British history and identity?

The idea that individuals who choose to play a history-based game should expect to encounter historical facts and not throw a hissy fit about it is "whatever nonsense"?

Should we remove any Arab-Islamic, or Ottoman Civ while we're at it because their historic invasions or Mediterranean slave trade offend me as a Christian? Of course not.

Your ideology is absurd and makes no sense, in real life, or in the context of Civilization.

First, you assume you know anything about my 'ideology'. You don't.

Second, you assume that because something does not offend you it shouldn't offend anyone.

That, it would seem, indicates that you believe no one else's opinions or beliefs have any validity if they contradict your own. Sorry if that is not true, but that;'s how it comes across.

A great many people, of which my two examples are only two, are offended by historical events, and your opinion does not change that. Whether I agree with their sense of offense or not doesn't change it either, nor did I express any affirmation or condemnation of their beliefs. They exist. A company that intends to sell a game to the maximum number of gamers will take that into account or it will not sell the game.

 

[dagriggstar]

View attachment 703604
The Norman UB seen in the French city scene.
It's clearly a Keep of some sort. I initially thought it might be a Motte, given the ovular footprint, but it doesn't feature much elevation, as a Motte's artificial mound would have.

I think that might be a manor house….

 

[The_goggles_do_nothing]

Has there been any information announced about what "Diplomatic, Militaristic" will mean? They have Militaristic abilities. Is the White Tower diplomatic?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

View attachment 703604
The Norman UB seen in the French city scene.
It's clearly a Keep of some sort. I initially thought it might be a Motte, given the ovular footprint, but it doesn't feature much elevation, as a Motte's artificial mound would have.

It's giving off a combination of French Chateau meets English Manor House to me. Which makes sense.