NOTW LII - The Immortals II [Game Thread - Concluded]

[choxorn]

Yeah, I did target you with it. The question is, how did you know that? Did sprig tell you when I targeted you with it?

 

[spaceman98]

Yeah, I did target you with it. The question is, how did you know that? Did sprig tell you when I targeted you with it?

No, but Sprig told me what sort of spell I was targeted with, and it matched your description.

 

[spaceman98]

Actually, given that choxorn's story with the spell checks out, I will unvote: vote Catharsis since his story is the only one that currently doesn't check out at all.

 

[choxorn]

I guess that makes sense.

 

[Backwards Logic]

Well, I see we're still not being forthcoming with everything, and I had a few more revelations. So, I'm going to play a game called 'who wants to help.' It's where I ask a question and you provide an answer. I promise, they're easy questions.

Catharsis: You know yours from earlier.
Choxorn: What does the Earth II spell do?
Spaceman: What does the Water II spell do?
BSmith: Do you still have the Fire Orb from the start? Can you show it to us? If you can't, what happened to it? Plus, Air II - what does it do?

I'll say this: Fire II is called channeling and allows the user's next spell to break through protection.

Go!

 

[choxorn]

"Breaking through protection" does not sound like a particularly townie ability to me.

 

[Backwards Logic]

Nope. It isn't. But that's all it does - it needs some other spell to be effective. Your turn.

 

[spaceman98]

What Water II does should already be common knowledge, so I will respond, even though I still don't trust you, BL (your post sounds like fishing for information, and could very much be pro-mafia).

Water two allows me to scan any mana orb, and learn if said orb contains the soul of a player.

 

[spaceman98]

BTW, would Autolycus like to say anything?

 

[Backwards Logic]

Here's my thinking: Assuming everyone in the game started with some orbs (which it appears), the mafia already know what the varying orbs do. They'd have no reason to fish. Even further, they wouldn't want the info in the thread, as it negates an information advantage they currently posses. Additionally, the case you're now supporting on Catharsis is largely based on information revealed in-thread from Winston - his scans, and Catharsis said he doesn't want to reveal anything else pertaining to the orbs in question. Choxorn ditto, as he's also dodging my questions. So yea, I could be fishing, but as mafia I have no incentive to. The other two above? They have a lot of reasons to keep quiet assuming I'm (finally) right here.

And I'd love it if BSmith, Autolycus, and Kennigit said something and/or voted. Crunch times folks.

EDIT: Went back and double-checked rules. Yea, everyone starts with at least one item.

 

[Kennigit]

Although not sure why catharsis would be as open about stuff as scum as he was, catharsis is good for me

 

[choxorn]

What makes you think the mafia started with every type of mana orb, Backwards? There might be one or two they don't know.

Also, Kennigit has an Earth Orb, he knows what the Earth II spell is, Spaceman knows what it is because of our illicit PM conversations, and neither of them have said what it is in public because it's not the sort of thing we think the mafia should know, and they probably would have killed me well before now if they did know.

On the other hand, I lost my Earth Orb right after getting it, so maybe they do know and think that keeping me from doing anything is more useful than killing me. And I just said that it's an ability worth killing me over.

So fine, I'll just say what it is: The Earth II spell protects a player from all spells.

 

[spaceman98]

Here's my thinking: Assuming everyone in the game started with some orbs (which it appears), the mafia already know what the varying orbs do. They'd have no reason to fish. Even further, they wouldn't want the info in the thread, as it negates an information advantage they currently posses. Additionally, the case you're now supporting on Catharsis is largely based on information revealed in-thread from Winston - his scans, and Catharsis said he doesn't want to reveal anything else pertaining to the orbs in question. Choxorn ditto, as he's also dodging my questions. So yea, I could be fishing, but as mafia I have no incentive to. The other two above? They have a lot of reasons to keep quiet assuming I'm (finally) right here.

And I'd love it if BSmith, Autolycus, and Kennigit said something and/or voted. Crunch times folks.

EDIT: Went back and double-checked rules. Yea, everyone starts with at least one item.

Maybe I am missing something important, but this feels like PIS.

There are at most three Mafiosi (if there were 4, we would already have lost. That's right, today is probably lylo). If each mafia started with 1 orb, then clearly they don't know every mana type. If each started with two, then what they know depends on whether they started with two of the same, or two different mana types.

BL has completely ignored all this, which sounds like PIS.

Answer rapidly, or be voted for.

 

[spaceman98]

Does anyone know how much time we have left in the day? The timer doesn't seem to work on my computer.

 

[Catharsis]

BL, I just... don't understand why you're trying to play the game this way and it makes me nervous.

Let's say you are innocent, and have two mana, Type X and Type Y. Neither X nor Y is raw. You are an innocent with two strength, which is good, but you can't use any spells, so you're just deadweight with a vote.

You basically just have to sit there feeling a bit guilty that you have more mana than you can make use of, because as per the original rules, mana can only be exchanged in the thread, and saying 'hey I have spare Type Y mana, who can use it?' paints a target on whoever responds, 'hey mafia, here's someone who's going to be using a spell tonight! want to have a shot?' So why would anyone respond?

But then the rule change happens, and that penalty is negated. But you still can't PM anyone.

So what I did, is take one of my orbs, and catapult it to someone else. I am still not telling who. I don't even know if that person still has it or if they sent it on as well. I don't even even know if that person was innocent. Someone has a chance to use the orb I was wasting to use a spell. That's it.

As for 'getting the results', how do you propose I do that in a game without private communication?

That's all that. I can see why you'd want to know that. What I cannot see, and what has been baffling me ever since the day started, is why you want to reveal who has what mana and what they do, in the thread, in full view of everyone.

"Fire II," says BL, "allows my spells to break through protection." Well great! Now we know there's protection. Did you all know that?

"I do not want to know who you passed your mana to," says BL, in contrast to BL a few posts earlier who said "Anyone want to confess to being the person Catharsis passed his orb to?"

"What does Earth II do, choxorn?" says BL. "What does Water II do, spaceman?" Choxorn keeps schtum because he doesn't want the thread knowing what Earth II does. Spaceman, who very much wants the thread to know that he is USING WATER II EVERY NIGHT AND CERTAINLY NOT USING A NIGHT KILL OR EVISCERATION ABILITY EVERY NIGHT NO SIR, of course immediately gives up the goods on Water II.

You say that it is bad play, or scum play, to want to keep information about what mana types do out of the thread. I say this: imagine I am an innocent player with one Earth mana orb. A person with Air II reveals what it does in the thread. Does that help me? No. I still can't use Air II. I can't tell if the player who has Air II is using it or not. I'm a guy with a bit of extra information that's of no use to me.

Now let's say I am a scum with one Earth mana orb. That person with the loose lips says what Air II does, again. Does that help me? Yes! Hey, guys, that person has Air II and it turns out it's pretty good! Let's kill him tonight! Or, let's frame him tomorrow!

And you base this on the fact that there are presumably numerous mafia who have lots of orbs and know them all already. Okay, if you're happy to build your castle on sand then fine, but as above - the information on what Air II does means nothing to townie me. At best it means nothing to scum me as well, if you're right. At worst, it directs my next kill. And let's not forget that this information about the function of mana has been coupled with lots of juicy orb reveals, so scums know exactly who can do what.

Lastly: you say that if you're a scum there'd be no reason for you to fish. Nah! As you say, we may well be in lynch-or-lose. The next night kill(s) could be critical. Scums want to know where the power roles are, this is obvious. Doctors, roleblockers, whatever. Maybe a scum would not stick their neck out to do what you did, but I can't see a reason for a townie to do it.

And spaceman: you would openly say 'I used my spell on X and got result Y' because you wouldn't actually need to use the spell to get that result, in either case (in the first case, choxorn had already revealed Darth Feather's soul; in the second case, Jarrema was already dead and unable to confirm). But using a known spell every night proves that you aren't using a nightkill, or that's what seems to be assumed.

 

[Backwards Logic]

I haven't ignored anything. I merely stated everyone starts with orbs and that the mafia know what they all do. Assuming three mafia, five orbs, and some people starting with more than one, it's highly likely the mafia already know what they all do. Plus, I highly doubt at start the mafia collectively have multiples of the same orb. Granting access to tier two spells that early as scum with a night kill seems imbalanced. Sure, they would have early on had no way to get them to each other, but just having that initial setup, with the rule change later so that they could pair them, seems imbalanced.

/takes GM's hat off.

 

[Kennigit]

Does anyone know how much time we have left in the day? The timer doesn't seem to work on my computer.

6 hours 30 minutes from time of this post (rounded)

 

[spaceman98]

BL, I just... don't understand why you're trying to play the game this way and it makes me nervous.

Let's say you are innocent, and have two mana, Type X and Type Y. Neither X nor Y is raw. You are an innocent with two strength, which is good, but you can't use any spells, so you're just deadweight with a vote.

You basically just have to sit there feeling a bit guilty that you have more mana than you can make use of, because as per the original rules, mana can only be exchanged in the thread, and saying 'hey I have spare Type Y mana, who can use it?' paints a target on whoever responds, 'hey mafia, here's someone who's going to be using a spell tonight! want to have a shot?' So why would anyone respond?

But then the rule change happens, and that penalty is negated. But you still can't PM anyone.

So what I did, is take one of my orbs, and catapult it to someone else. I am still not telling who. I don't even know if that person still has it or if they sent it on as well. I don't even even know if that person was innocent. Someone has a chance to use the orb I was wasting to use a spell. That's it.

As for 'getting the results', how do you propose I do that in a game without private communication?

That's all that. I can see why you'd want to know that. What I cannot see, and what has been baffling me ever since the day started, is why you want to reveal who has what mana and what they do, in the thread, in full view of everyone.

"Fire II," says BL, "allows my spells to break through protection." Well great! Now we know there's protection. Did you all know that?

"I do not want to know who you passed your mana to," says BL, in contrast to BL a few posts earlier who said "Anyone want to confess to being the person Catharsis passed his orb to?"

"What does Earth II do, choxorn?" says BL. "What does Water II do, spaceman?" Choxorn keeps schtum because he doesn't want the thread knowing what Earth II does. Spaceman, who very much wants the thread to know that he is USING WATER II EVERY NIGHT AND CERTAINLY NOT USING A NIGHT KILL OR EVISCERATION ABILITY EVERY NIGHT NO SIR, of course immediately gives up the goods on Water II.

You say that it is bad play, or scum play, to want to keep information about what mana types do out of the thread. I say this: imagine I am an innocent player with one Earth mana orb. A person with Air II reveals what it does in the thread. Does that help me? No. I still can't use Air II. I can't tell if the player who has Air II is using it or not. I'm a guy with a bit of extra information that's of no use to me.

Now let's say I am a scum with one Earth mana orb. That person with the loose lips says what Air II does, again. Does that help me? Yes! Hey, guys, that person has Air II and it turns out it's pretty good! Let's kill him tonight! Or, let's frame him tomorrow!

And you base this on the fact that there are presumably numerous mafia who have lots of orbs and know them all already. Okay, if you're happy to build your castle on sand then fine, but as above - the information on what Air II does means nothing to townie me. At best it means nothing to scum me as well, if you're right. At worst, it directs my next kill. And let's not forget that this information about the function of mana has been coupled with lots of juicy orb reveals, so scums know exactly who can do what.

Lastly: you say that if you're a scum there'd be no reason for you to fish. Nah! As you say, we may well be in lynch-or-lose. The next night kill(s) could be critical. Scums want to know where the power roles are, this is obvious. Doctors, roleblockers, whatever. Maybe a scum would not stick their neck out to do what you did, but I can't see a reason for a townie to do it.

And spaceman: you would openly say 'I used my spell on X and got result Y' because you wouldn't actually need to use the spell to get that result, in either case (in the first case, choxorn had already revealed Darth Feather's soul; in the second case, Jarrema was already dead and unable to confirm). But using a known spell every night proves that you aren't using a nightkill, or that's what seems to be assumed.

I don't see why you are assuming this. Why do you think that there is a limit of 1 spell per night? Can we even be sure that the night kill is a spell?

Catharsis's claim: that he blindly gave an orb, is very suspicious. Given the power that mana orbs have in this game, a useless mana orb in the hands of a townie is better than one being used by mafia.

 

[Kennigit]

anyways, I've always just been assuming 2 scum (considering no private communication, etc) but now that I think about it, 3 scum probably makes sense to if the dead innocents are able to somehow influence the living through orb things and stuff.

if there are 3 scum, it's probably 1 of auto+bsmith and then 2 of the more active people.

I'm betting catharsis + one of auto/bsmith, with a good chance catharsis gave his mana to not his teammate

in an hour I'll bother to look at stuff in more detail I suppose, expect some multiquotes (eg I'll just slap together the choxorn-spaceman vote-each-other-stuff-but-apparently-were-PMing quote chain, etc)

I'm pretty sure one of the flavor write ups said like everyone grabbed 1 orb in the meeting or something so it's not like it is anywhere near PIS to say everyone had an orb.

Which is also curious why catharsis said at some point he didn't have an affinity, but he's saying now he can't cast spells. One role that can do that? Maybe balance wise, but for a council of powerful mages I'd say less than likely.

 

[Backwards Logic]

Spoiler Catharsis :

BL, I just... don't understand why you're trying to play the game this way and it makes me nervous.

Let's say you are innocent, and have two mana, Type X and Type Y. Neither X nor Y is raw. You are an innocent with two strength, which is good, but you can't use any spells, so you're just deadweight with a vote.

You basically just have to sit there feeling a bit guilty that you have more mana than you can make use of, because as per the original rules, mana can only be exchanged in the thread, and saying 'hey I have spare Type Y mana, who can use it?' paints a target on whoever responds, 'hey mafia, here's someone who's going to be using a spell tonight! want to have a shot?' So why would anyone respond?

But then the rule change happens, and that penalty is negated. But you still can't PM anyone.

So what I did, is take one of my orbs, and catapult it to someone else. I am still not telling who. I don't even know if that person still has it or if they sent it on as well. I don't even even know if that person was innocent. Someone has a chance to use the orb I was wasting to use a spell. That's it.

As for 'getting the results', how do you propose I do that in a game without private communication?

That's all that. I can see why you'd want to know that. What I cannot see, and what has been baffling me ever since the day started, is why you want to reveal who has what mana and what they do, in the thread, in full view of everyone.

"Fire II," says BL, "allows my spells to break through protection." Well great! Now we know there's protection. Did you all know that?

"I do not want to know who you passed your mana to," says BL, in contrast to BL a few posts earlier who said "Anyone want to confess to being the person Catharsis passed his orb to?"

"What does Earth II do, choxorn?" says BL. "What does Water II do, spaceman?" Choxorn keeps schtum because he doesn't want the thread knowing what Earth II does. Spaceman, who very much wants the thread to know that he is USING WATER II EVERY NIGHT AND CERTAINLY NOT USING A NIGHT KILL OR EVISCERATION ABILITY EVERY NIGHT NO SIR, of course immediately gives up the goods on Water II.

You say that it is bad play, or scum play, to want to keep information about what mana types do out of the thread. I say this: imagine I am an innocent player with one Earth mana orb. A person with Air II reveals what it does in the thread. Does that help me? No. I still can't use Air II. I can't tell if the player who has Air II is using it or not. I'm a guy with a bit of extra information that's of no use to me.

Now let's say I am a scum with one Earth mana orb. That person with the loose lips says what Air II does, again. Does that help me? Yes! Hey, guys, that person has Air II and it turns out it's pretty good! Let's kill him tonight! Or, let's frame him tomorrow!

And you base this on the fact that there are presumably numerous mafia who have lots of orbs and know them all already. Okay, if you're happy to build your castle on sand then fine, but as above - the information on what Air II does means nothing to townie me. At best it means nothing to scum me as well, if you're right. At worst, it directs my next kill. And let's not forget that this information about the function of mana has been coupled with lots of juicy orb reveals, so scums know exactly who can do what.

Lastly: you say that if you're a scum there'd be no reason for you to fish. Nah! As you say, we may well be in lynch-or-lose. The next night kill(s) could be critical. Scums want to know where the power roles are, this is obvious. Doctors, roleblockers, whatever. Maybe a scum would not stick their neck out to do what you did, but I can't see a reason for a townie to do it.

And spaceman: you would openly say 'I used my spell on X and got result Y' because you wouldn't actually need to use the spell to get that result, in either case (in the first case, choxorn had already revealed Darth Feather's soul; in the second case, Jarrema was already dead and unable to confirm). But using a known spell every night proves that you aren't using a nightkill, or that's what seems to be assumed.

There's a couple of flaws here I'd like to address.

So what I did, is take one of my orbs, and catapult it to someone else. I am still not telling who. I don't even know if that person still has it or if they sent it on as well. I don't even even know if that person was innocent. Someone has a chance to use the orb I was wasting to use a spell. That's it.

Assuming you're innocent, this is quite ballsy. You're basically taking a mana you can't use, and instead of even attempting to get another mana so you can use either of them, you blindly send it off to someone you have no idea of their affiliation. Which means sure, they could use it for good, but they could also use it for bad, and you'd have no way of knowing. Why on Earth would you risk that?

You didn't respond to the timing of the eviscerations starting around the time you handed stuff off. If you subscribe to the theory some condition was met for the eviscerations to start (I don't know if you do though, and if you don't what do you think started them), then it stands to reason your move might have actually had a real effect on the night killings. But you miss that part entirely. Sure, it could have been something else entirely not related to you. But there's not a whole lot else it could be - you seem certain spaceman is behind it but won't consider choxorn as a possibility either.

As for 'getting the results', how do you propose I do that in a game without private communication?

Exactly. That's why that move is so ballsy and so unbelievable, at least for me.

"Fire II," says BL, "allows my spells to break through protection." Well great! Now we know there's protection. Did you all know that?

"I do not want to know who you passed your mana to," says BL, in contrast to BL a few posts earlier who said "Anyone want to confess to being the person Catharsis passed his orb to?"

First point: stands to reason the 'normal' roles would be present in the game. Roleblock/protection/vig/some sort of scanner(s) etc.

What changed from the earlier point you mentioned was that I no longer believe orbs are being sacrificed for eviscerations. So the earlier remark was more looking for confirmation it wasn't destroyed, and that you actually did give it away.

"What does Earth II do, choxorn?" says BL. "What does Water II do, spaceman?" Choxorn keeps schtum because he doesn't want the thread knowing what Earth II does. Spaceman, who very much wants the thread to know that he is USING WATER II EVERY NIGHT AND CERTAINLY NOT USING A NIGHT KILL OR EVISCERATION ABILITY EVERY NIGHT NO SIR, of course immediately gives up the goods on Water II.

You say that it is bad play, or scum play, to want to keep information about what mana types do out of the thread. I say this: imagine I am an innocent player with one Earth mana orb. A person with Air II reveals what it does in the thread. Does that help me? No. I still can't use Air II. I can't tell if the player who has Air II is using it or not. I'm a guy with a bit of extra information that's of no use to me.

No, you're missing the point here. From the public votes, everyone knows choxorn and spaceman have a whole bunch of orbs. They are already targets regardless of what the orbs actually do. It stands to reason that if they are innocent, they would be killed off anyway to knock down the innocent's strength number. It doesn't matter it this context what they do. What matters is now getting the information out there and then asking followup questions to see how they respond. Spaceman got a message from Sprig stating a spell was used on him (choxorn confirmed he targeted him), which now means we can at the very least ask choxorn who else he's sent that spell on and if that person can now come forward and confirm. See? Now we get progress.

Now let's say I am a scum with one Earth mana orb. That person with the loose lips says what Air II does, again. Does that help me? Yes! Hey, guys, that person has Air II and it turns out it's pretty good! Let's kill him tonight! Or, let's frame him tomorrow!

Like I said earlier, the innocents with multiple orbs are already targets of the mafia. You gloss over this point in your next statement. Plus, there's another key point you miss: I only have one Fire Orb, yet my grayed out text in my PM states what Fire II is. I know what it is, but I can't use it. So the above is moot.

Lastly: you say that if you're a scum there'd be no reason for you to fish. Nah! As you say, we may well be in lynch-or-lose. The next night kill(s) could be critical. Scums want to know where the power roles are, this is obvious. Doctors, roleblockers, whatever. Maybe a scum would not stick their neck out to do what you did, but I can't see a reason for a townie to do it.

It's the opposite. You seem to believe we're in lynch and lose. I certainly do. Spaceman does. The next night kill doesn't matter if this lynch is wrong. Scum already know where they are; it's important to confirm, or at least try to, that they are what they say they are. Surely you see the merit in that? I mean, isn't that your case on spaceman?