Atom bombs are today considered a special kind of evil, something that's upheld by the absence of use since WWII. I've always been worried that if 1 A-bomb were to be used today, it would greatly reduce its special status and it would be much easer to drop/use the 2nd, 3rd and so on.
WW1 was also about democracies in one side and autocracies in the other. No, the real difference is that no one could dispute Hitler triggered ww2 whereas things aren't as clear for ww1.I consider World War I to be a war between imperialist states, no real good/evil side, and entirely waged for the purpose of conquering colonies. Governments didn't care that the war made no real sense; why should they, due to the rewards of a victory?
World War II, it's a lot more clear cut. While there were imperialist motives(nearly every government has them), we have democracies on one side and horrific dictatorships who are butchering millions of civilians on the other. Sure, the Allies committed war crimes too, but compared to the scale of what Japan and Germany did?
Germany? And the worst of all - Russia?! Or the UK having the majority of its population not voting at all? That metric just is no use for WWI.WW1 was also about democracies in one side and autocracies in the other.
Or, you know, the treaty wouldn't have been as harsh which created the strong resentment towards the peace in the first place (it's not like the German didn't mind starving). Which still didn't make the population thirst for war, as Hitlers promises of peace demonstrate.The general idea repeated everywhere is that we've been too harsh against the Germans after ww1. That is utterly wrong. The allies should have never accepted to stop at the German border as it has given room for German extremists to believe the war was lost because of bad politicians and not because of the military.
More likely and resting on far less assumptions is the explanation that after one world war already killed most public desire for war, a second even more devastating one sealed the deal.Unconditional capitulation was thought in 1944/1945 as the only way to reach a stable peace. And I believe events proved that theory to be true.
Thing is, at the time the decision to use the nuclear bomb was made, it was no longer you against them.
It wasn't a choice between hundreds of thousands of dead Japanese civilians or hundreds of thousands of dead American civilians.
It was a choice between negotiating an acceptable peace treaty with Japan or getting Japan to unconditionally capitulate.
Killing lots of Japanese civilians to get an unconditional capitulation is... questionable at best. Morally abhorrent and a war-crime at worst.
If only things were so simple! Russia was under an autocratic regime, Serbia was under an autocratic regime (that had also expansionist aims of its own against Bulgaria), and Britain, France, and Belgium all had limited suffrage for its citizens and little if any for its colonial subjects. Even in those so-called democracies, the press was censored, political opponents were jailed, and people were enslaved into the armies.WW1 was also about democracies in one side and autocracies in the other.
...and the U.S., Britain and France escape blame even though they were the ones to impose upon Germany the harsh terms that were later capitalized on by the Hitlerites.No, the real difference is that no one could dispute Hitler triggered ww2 whereas things aren't as clear for ww1.
Can you say it was a feasible idea for Germans NOT to slaughter millions of Jews? Think about it, those Jews probably would have made up rebel groups, sabotaging Nazi armies, and slowing down Germany - possibly leading to more people dying from German invasions, since they'd be prolonged battles instead of quick wins.
You know how fast France fell? What if Jew rebels started sabotaging tank divisions, or supply lines, making it harder for Germany to conquer France, and making the invasion last long - greater casualties.
The furthering of a military goal does not automatically justify an action.
Atom bombs are today considered a special kind of evil, something that's upheld by the absence of use since WWII. I've always been worried that if 1 A-bomb were to be used today, it would greatly reduce its special status and it would be much easer to drop/use the 2nd, 3rd and so on.
In most cases I would agree with you. However world war II was an entirely different war and lots more was at stake. Morals had to be shoved aside to assure that the Axis powers were dismantled as they were a threat to any sort of global stability.
Did you honestly think the Japanese would relinquish the rest of their empire if we did not force them to surrender? What about the American and foreign POWs they controlled. Are there lives not worth more than the enemies?
Normally I am a pacifist and oppose war but I have enough sense to value a comrades life over one of someone who I am fighting and wishes me destroyed. It is regrettable but there in my position I would value peoples lives differently.
Sorry for shouting, but I think I'm in my right to do so. It still seems to me as if you argue that killing civilians is okay as long as it saves the lives of your own soldiers, and that the US/Allies had the right to make Japan (and Germany) surrender unconditionally, whatever it took.I'm talking about the war in general, not specifically that time period, you don't have to nitpick and then shout at me for God's sake.
In most cases, I prefer to work under the assumption that most people are not insane.The emperor refused to surrender at all until the atomic bomb was dropped. He was considering it, but he didnt give out the order for surrender until the bombs were dropped. That's a fact.
Can you really really say in restrospect that it was a feasible idea for the Americans to back off and let them fortify their position on the island while refusing to surrender?
POW are usually exchanged when a peace treaty is signed. With Japan's position during the latter part of the war, there are strong reasons to believe they would have been willing to peacefully cede their control of the remaining occupied territories.Did you honestly think the Japanese would relinquish the rest of their empire if we did not force them to surrender? What about the American and foreign POWs they controlled. Are there lives not worth more than the enemies?
Japanese assets in the U.S. were frozen, military aid was being given to the Chinese, and Cordell Hull was beating his chest over France's "territorial integrity" in colonial Indochina. FDR and his toadies knew a war would result from their policies and followed them for that purpose, misleading the American public all the way.Japan was responsible for the war by attacking pearl harbor unprovoked.
Sorry for shouting, but I think I'm in my right to do so. It still seems to me as if you argue that killing civilians is okay as long as it saves the lives of your own soldiers, and that the US/Allies had the right to make Japan (and Germany) surrender unconditionally, whatever it took.QUOTE]
Some other posters have pointed out that the surrender was not so immediate.
It's a matter up for debate. Anyway, it's easy to look back at the time now that we can look at it from all angles but from the point of view of those living at the time, they were still thinking of gambling American lives which is someting they didn't want to do. Especially since this was an enemy which had brazenly attacked them. Is it really any wonder that they took the action that they did?
That's hardly a fair comparison.
The United States was at war with Japan. Japan was responsible for the war by attacking pearl harbor unprovoked. Being on the recieving end of a trade embargo does not justify sneak attacking a country whom you are at peace with.
In Germany the nazis chose to incite racial hatred towards jews and other undesirables in german society and openly fanned the flames provoking conflicts with the jews. In doing so, they are completely responsible for the mass murder of their own citizens. It was entirely unprovoked.
In most cases I would agree with you. However world war II was an entirely different war and lots more was at stake. Morals had to be shoved aside to assure that the Axis powers were dismantled as they were a threat to any sort of global stability.
Did you honestly think the Japanese would relinquish the rest of their empire if we did not force them to surrender? What about the American and foreign POWs they controlled. Are there lives not worth more than the enemies?
Normally I am a pacifist and oppose war but I have enough sense to value a comrades life over one of someone who I am fighting and wishes me destroyed. It is regrettable but there in my position I would value peoples lives differently.
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Do you honestly believe that the Japanese government would continue to wage a war until they thought every Japanese person would perish? It was just as clear for them as for everyone else that they could not win, that their country and people were suffering greatly by the continuation of the war, and that their forces were constantly pushed back.