nukes aren't fun!

If only things were so simple! Russia was under an autocratic regime...
Yeah. Because during WW2 Stalin's Soviet Union was also a democratic heaven. :rolleyes:

Guys, I was answering to someone who told ww2 was about democracy vs dictatorship. Sorry but it's not more relevant to say this about ww2 than it is about ww1.

And yes, I won't waste my time to argue about it, but in order to prevent ww2, the only solution was to reach Berlin at the end of ww1. Obviously Germans weren't sick enough about war in 1918 since they were ready to start it again 20 years later.

And to go even further on my point, since the Briand-Kellogg pact signed in 1928 to the invasion of Poland in 1939, France and Britain's kindness has served no other purpose than to convince Hitler he could make his territory shopping in Central Europe without any worry.

The total annihilation of Germany, the military occupation and the divide of the country in 4 parts is what made Germans understand war wasn't cool anymore. It's sad to say so, but Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki is what convinced the mankind it had the power to destroy itself. I don't give any moral value to this statement. I'm not saying those slaughters were "good", I just look at the facts as they are.
 
It's sad to say so, but Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki is what convinced the mankind it had the power to destroy itself. I don't give any moral value to this statement. I'm not saying those slaughters were "good", I just look at the facts as they are.

Though nothing compared to the scale of those specific events beforehand, plenty of people reached the same conclusion that humans could destroy themselves following WWI. Hitler even gave multiple speeches on the subject before it became clear that he had either changed his mind or was lying.

Just saying, destruction doesn't necessarily stop future destruction. Apparently people forget.

By the time the Allies were firebombing and dropping nukes on the Axis, there was no question about who would eventually win and lose the war. The more humane thing to do would be to not go after innocent civilians while at the same time negotiating an acceptable peace treaty to end the war.

I think you are underrating how delusional the Axis leadership was. Hitler thought he stood a chance almost up until the end. For Germany negotiating with the Soviet Union was pretty much impossible, while for the Japanese, negotiations were attempted multiple times only to be sabotaged by either the Soviets or the Japanese themselves.

As for not going after civilians, I'll admit more effort should have been made, but it was quite difficult. In Japan residential and industrial areas were so mixed that attacking one without attacking the other would have been extremely difficult if not impossible. I'll admit I don't know enough on Dresden to say if it was similar.
 
The hard truth(as some see it) is that Stalin's delays in declaring war on Japan was the reason US had to nuke them twice. Only a few minutes past midnight on the day of the Nagano bomb did he declare war. Which caused Hirohito to sue for peace. A lot of sources is of the opinion that he and the military leadership felt Japan had many cities left to sacrifice to US nukes before he would've surrendered(which was a problem for US since they had a very limited supply - they where dropping them as quickly as they could and the weather permitted them to see the targets).
 
Was it necessary to nuke an actual city with innocents? Or would a relatively uninhabited area prove better? A show of force to the Japanese, without killing any civilians, would have rendered the same capitulation. And hey, if it doesn't work, you can always go back to gung-ho nuclear mass-murder.
 
I could be wrong, but from I remember reading one of the biggest reasons why we dropped the nuclear bombs was so that we could make Japan surrender to the USA rather than to the USSR. Russians troops were advancing fast towards Japan and were poised to invade in great numbers within a matter of weeks.


Personally I see the first atomic bombing as justifiable, but not the second. Perhaps it was necessary to show that we had more than one nuclear bomb we could use, but we chose just about the worst location for this second demonstration. Nagasaki was not the military town that Hiroshima was, but rather one of the busiest civilian ports. While it is true that the intended target of the bomb was the military naval yard, the expected blast radius was large enough that it would have killed a lot of civilians even if it hadn't missed. Nagasaki was also the least likely city to support fighting to the death for the honor of their divine emperor, because it was the only part of Japan with a large Christian population.
 
Hirohito didn't flinch for the days he knew about the massacre of Hiroshima. And as someone else allready stated, the allies proved that they where willing to firebomb japanese cities, and had allready inflicted a lot more casualties that way compared to the total casualties of the two atomic bombs.

I guess at that point in 1945 the only conclusion you could draw was that war is hell. It never was and never will be pretty.

And I think Hirohito would never surrender directly to the russians instead of the US anyway. Even if US hadn't nuked them. So I'm very doubtful of that argument MasterCultuum. And besides, like I said. Stalin declared war on Japan three days after Hiroshima - so his troops hadn't even entered Manchuria.
 
That is true Perf. I still think nuking asteroids is a good option to defend ourselves from them if time is too short for any longer term solution. Or did you have any other examples of fun nukes?
 
I cant believe people in this thread are talking about conditional surrender legitimately. What a lack of understanding. Unconditional surrender was a war goal right from the opening.
 
And yes, I won't waste my time to argue about it, but in order to prevent ww2, the only solution was to reach Berlin at the end of ww1. Obviously Germans weren't sick enough about war in 1918 since they were ready to start it again 20 years later.

That's utter nonsense.

WW2 could have been avoided in so many ways that it's not even funny. If the French government had been at least one bit sensible about the post-WW1 arrangement, the domestic situation in Germany would never have deteriorated so much that the Nazis could enter the political mainstream.

But no, you wanted to make the Germans pay and suffer and pay and suffer for what "they" did in WW1, and thus you helped plunge Europe into an even greater disaster.

Blaming everything on the alleged German "thirst for war" is just racism a nasty stereotype.

I cant believe people in this thread are talking about conditional surrender legitimately. What a lack of understanding. Unconditional surrender was a war goal right from the opening.

No, it wasn't. It was only established as an Allied war aim in 1943.
 
Back on topic:

one thing many people often miss out when debating this is that if the Germans hadn't surrendered in May 1945, the Americans would have used the nukes here in Europe (for which I am sure we'd all be forever grateful :p ).
 
That's utter nonsense.

WW2 could have been avoided in so many ways that it's not even funny. If the French government had been at least one bit sensible about the post-WW1 arrangement, the domestic situation in Germany would never have deteriorated so much that the Nazis could enter the political mainstream.
That is historically totally wrong.

Aristide Briand started to soften the Versailles treaty conditions as early as in 1925. At the minute the 1929 crisis touched Germany, they stopped paying reparations and everyone let them do. At the minute Hitler decided to send troops back in Rheinland, we let him do. At the minute Hitler decided to make the Anschluss, we let him do. And it's been the same when he invaded Bohemia-Moravia and in multiple other times.

France started its reconciliation policy with Germany as early as in 1925. A long time before the economic crisis. That portrayal of an evil blind France murdering Germany is, historically, totally wrong.

Both France and the UK were far too lenient with the axis powers during the 1930's. Both countries basically let Germany, Italy and Japan do whatever they wanted without saying a word. Their mistake was there. Not in signing a treaty which didn't even last 5 years.

Blaming everything on the alleged German "thirst for war" is just racism a nasty stereotype.
You've obviously understood nothing. It's not at all a thirst for war. The negociated peace of 1918 basically helped Ludendorff, Hindenburg and Hitler to promote the idea the war hasn't been lost by the Wehrmacht but by lousy politicians. And later, the British and French softness convinced Hitler he could basically do everything he wanted without firing a single bullet.

I don't believe Hitler wanted war when he decided to invade Poland. He simply believed that France and Britain won't intervene as it always happened before. It's only once Hitler invaded France in only a matter of weeks that he started to believe his army was unbeatable.

That's exactly that kind of cycle that allies didn't want to see again after WW2. And the theory of unconditional capitulation was exactly based on that. If the 1945 capitulation is considered as "fair" and the 1918 capitulation isn't, it's exactly because the German defeat in 1945 was undisputable. It's not because it was less harsh.

In 1871, France accepted the Frankfurt Treaty which made them lost Alsace-Moselle and pay reparations which were at the same level as those of the Versailles Treaty (reparations that France did pay, even in advance). And the reason why it's been accepted by France is simply that we triggered the war and we clearly lost it (Prussians took Paris). That's exactly what was missing in 1918, and what wasn't missing in 1945.
 
That is historically totally wrong.

Aristide Briand started to soften the Versailles treaty conditions as early as in 1925.

You mean six years too late? You left out the part where France occupied the Rhineland to squeeze money out of Germany, thus starting the whole hyperinflation spiral and dealing further humiliation to Germany. You also left out the whole Versailles fiasco where the victorious powers, spurred chiefly by French desire for revenge, treated Germany as some sort of 3rd world power. No wonder they despised the final treaty, it was a totally unfair dictate that severely undermined the credibility of the new republican government. It's almost as if France hadn't noticed that the Kaiser wasn't in charge any more, so they were punishing the wrong people. If on the other hand France had chosen to be generous in its victory, the new republican system in Germany would have been strong enough to combat radical tendencies on the fringes of the political spectrum and the Nazis would have never become a dominant political party.

At the minute the 1929 crisis touched Germany, they stopped paying reparations and everyone let them do. At the minute Hitler decided to send troops back in Rheinland, we let him do. At the minute Hitler decided to make the Anschluss, we let him do. And it's been the same when he invaded Bohemia-Moravia and in multiple other times.

So, first you treated the democratic government in Germany as crap, thus indirectly causing it to be overthrown by totalitarian forces, and when the time came to be firm against this new tyranny, you caved, sacrificing your democratic allies in the process.

Wonderful. Now you know what I meant when I said "If the French government had been at least one bit sensible"...

France started its reconciliation policy with Germany as early as in 1925. A long time before the economic crisis. That portrayal of an evil blind France murdering Germany is, historically, totally wrong.

I didn't say France was evil, just totally incompetent in its role of the peacekeeper of Europe.

Both France and the UK were far too lenient with the axis powers during the 1930's. Both countries basically let Germany, Italy and Japan do whatever they wanted without saying a word. Their mistake was there. Not in signing a treaty which didn't even last 5 years.

You misunderstood me - by the time Nazis were in charge, it was already too late. Then you should have been ready to fight Hitler, but for some insane reason, it was the time you suddenly began being soft against Germany.

You've obviously understood nothing. It's not at all a thirst for war. The negociated peace of 1918 basically helped Ludendorff, Hindenburg and Hitler to promote the idea the war hasn't been lost by the Wehrmacht but by lousy politicians. And later, the British and French softness convinced Hitler he could basically do everything he wanted without firing a single bullet.

Sigh, you're missing the whole 1918-1933 period.

Most of the damage was done between 1919-1925. The peace wasn't resented in Germany because its armies were not defeated enough, it was resented because it was patently unfair. You put all the blame for the war squarely on Germany, you decided to suffocate its economy through war reparations (so that you could pay your own debts to the Americans), you forced Germany to give up territories that were ethnically German, thus violating your own promises of self-determination, and you didn't even try to support the new German republican regime.

This was the root of all the problems that followed later, and you can hardly deny that.
 
@Winner:

Ok right. Then what should have been done in 1918? Nothing?

The occupation of Rheinland was a good idea, but to work it should have been conqueered militarily, exactly as it happened in 1945.

As for the reparations, yes it turned out as a bad idea, but it was simply impossible to know beforehand considering that France paid the exact same reparations to Germany from 1871 to 1910, and did so with only minor harm.


In 1918, Germany was still the most powerful country in Europe. It was even more than in 1914 considering that France's most industrialized regions were totally devastated by the war. Saying "too bad, your invasion didn't work, see you next time" was clearly not a better solution.

As for the regions lost by Germany after 1918, well, it lost EVEN MORE after 1945. Tell me exactly how giving all Eastern Prussia, Silesia and Pomerania to the Poles was "less atrocious" than only giving the small minor town of Danzig.

1918 was doomed at the moment the armistice was signed for the simple reason that there wasn't any clear loser at that stage. The allies only had to move to Cologne in order to make understand to Germans it was over.

Germany's territory was intact after WW1, France's territory was devastated. The objective of both France and Britain at Versailles was to make it sure Germany would not have the capacity anymore to invade again... but that objective was doomed to fail from start. And this, because of the simple fact not a single bullet has been shot in the German territory during the whole war.

It's easy to consider Versailles treaty was atrocious, it's a lot less to find a reasonable agreement considering the situation in which the armistice has been signed.
 
And just to stop with that absurd off-topic, yes, the nukes and Dresden have been awful slaughters that probably should have been avoided. But at the very least, they've given total legitimacy to the full occupation of both Japan and Germany.

Once again, I'm not giving any moral value to that statement. The only thing which is sure is that the world of the 1950's and 1960's was a lot more stable than the world of the 1920's and 1930's.
 
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