On reincarnation of God

Are you by any chance, a god watching this thread?


  • Total voters
    18
You hit the nail right on the head. Faith is what saves. Even if it is the size of a mustard seed if it is genuine it saves.
Which, I'll point out, most Christians verifably don't have. The number of amputees pretty well proves that (and the number of Christians fooled by placebo also does). It's an assumption that you need less faith to be saved than to move mountains. I know, I know, it's also 'faith' that you need less faith. But it's an assumption. Self-entitled cockiness isn't faith.

Not so sure that the Bible is a tool to lead people astray. I've been seeing a lot of this type of discussion lately. Jesus said of the last days to be wary of deception. (I'm paraphrasing)

I don't believe that it's a tool designed to lead people astray (I like the thing a Rabbi said once, it's not so much a tool to understand God, it's a record of people's best-efforts to understand God), I just say that there's more evidence that it is designed thusly than it being legit Holy.

An anonymous author quotes Jesus as having said that. You cannot definitely say "Jesus said that". I mean, it's the same book where a (different) anonymous author claims that God wiped out humanity with a Flood. Heck, the same author who quotes Jesus tell us a story about Jesus's temptation. We know that the authors included 'facts' that they didn't actually have evidence for. The book you're holding was built by fallible people after Jesus was gone, for all you know, that's where the deception occurred.

But, as a tool designed to lead people astray, it's not like the average Bible-believer has faith sufficient to move mountains. And the average Bible-believer has believed really awful things about God (without evidence) because of the Bible. I assume it's people's best-effort. But if we want to assume the existence of supernatural forces, there's more evidence that it was built by a mischievous spirit than a good one. As far as I can tell, we've swapped real faith in God for a faith in the Bible.
 
Biblical inerrancy is not a universal Christian belief. There are many Christians for whom the Bible is not "Holy Writ". If one accepts that faith is the key salvation, a holy book may be important but it does not have to dominate one actions. Evangelicals get most of the Christian publicity, but they do not dominate Christian America.
 
We do get a little burnt out on people telling us our theology and then tossing around croud sourced stats on the book. Evangelicals get tiring sometimes, too.

Biblical and Christlike are not the same. A pastor of mine posted that online, today. One of them is the good book. The other is the human third of God.
 
One reason, other than the CV19 lockdowns of 2020, I have not attended an organized church is precisely the point that most preachers/priests do not teach the Word truthfully. (ironically the lockdowns kind of woke me from my "religious slumber") Organized religion, many but not all, twists the message to suit their selfish goals.

Trust no one, not even me, when someone says this or that about the Bible. Read it for yourself and whether you believe in God or not simply just ask God is this really what you meant? What is the meaning of this or that? Etc. If you let Him, He will talk to you and show you the way. :)
 
In fairness, I've seen great harms done by someone who sincerely believed he talked to and was guided by God. I will stand in full confidence that he believed it, and his faith in God didn't protect him from his delusions the least bit. And that's just the worst case, I've experienced many others. But in that case, I am convinced of his sincere efforts. Sincere efforts to commune with God don't produce results, but there will be a subset of people who've personally experienced that it does. So, it's plausible that it's something about their neuroanatomy that's involved.


Even the confidence that you can individually commune with God is a bit prideful. It takes a lot of self-confidence to presume that you're not just hearing what you want to hear, and that is then subject to Dunning-Kruger effects. Then you're in this weird space, where only smart people can accurately tell if they're communing with God. I mean, it makes sense (in some ways). But it's also ... weird ... that the honesty of your relationship with God depends on your intelligence.

Don't get me wrong, I love everything about the faith that people use to be good people. I just tilt at the evils it contains. I argue the falsehoods cuz ... I dunno ... being right is fun.
 
Even the confidence that you can individually commune with God is a bit prideful. It takes a lot of self-confidence to presume that you're not just hearing what you want to hear, and that is then subject to Dunning-Kruger effects. Then you're in this weird space, where only smart people can accurately tell if they're communing with God. I mean, it makes sense (in some ways). But it's also ... weird ... that the honesty of your relationship with God depends on your intelligence.

I think I understand what you mean about being prideful.

Are there people out there that arrogantly proclaim that due to their superior intellect they are the only ones who can commune with a god? Yes.

If this is how I present myself I sincerely apologize. I'm nobody, nothing. I don't claim to be better than anyone simply because I say I hear God. I'm just a stupid man.

What I am trying to claim however is that anyone, and I mean anyone, can hear God if they just believe (for real). You don't have to be some kind of highly evolved creature with supernatural powers to talk to and hear God. Anyone can do it. (Faith required of course).
 
What I am trying to claim however is that anyone, and I mean anyone, can hear God if they just believe (for real). You don't have to be some kind of highly evolved creature with supernatural powers to talk to and hear God. Anyone can do it. (Faith required of course).

Obvious question: how do you know that it's God that all those people are hearing?
 
What I am trying to claim however is that anyone, and I mean anyone, can hear God if they just believe (for real). You don't have to be some kind of highly evolved creature with supernatural powers to talk to and hear God. Anyone can do it. (Faith required of course).
I'm familiar with that belief, because I used to hold it. What actually happens is that a subset of people believe it happens when they try it, and so believe the experience can be universal. In some ways, it's like me believing that everyone can roll their tongues if they just try hard enough. I could believe them when they say they can't, or I can believe they're deceiving themselves. The 'rolling tongues' is a good example, because it will be harder for some people than others due to neuroanatomy, but the easier someone finds it to be, the harder time they have understanding that other people can't do it. Not without just believing them.

I will be claiming basically the opposite of you, that you need to be "intelligent" in order to realize that what you think is God, isn't actually God. That it's only "rationality" that allows you to second guess whether you're actually listening to yourself.

I'll put quote marks around 'intelligent' and 'rationality', because I'm referring to a nebulous cognition, which is not captured in the colloquial use of those condescending words. I'll use my example again to reframe. My person's sincere belief and love for God couldn't clue him in that it wasn't God telling him to do stuff. But, for him to realize that it wasn't actually God (but his own mind) required a long, long time. And, it won't just be the one, I've seen too many people's lives severely damaged because they sincerely believed they were listening to God.

I'm a former Christian, from the cohort that believed in personal communion. I know it comes across as condescending when I use those quote-marked words, but I'm truly trying to not be. I'm even trying to be the opposite, I truly do believe that the people I know who believe they commune with God are actually incredibly sincere in their efforts and perception. I think they're good people trying to be good people, loving people who are trying to be loving. But because it's been put into their heads that God talks to them, dissonance prevents them from deducing when (in real time) it's their own thoughts and when it's not. It takes a lot of hubris for me to insist that they're not actually hearing God, I understand. But, He sure engages in a lot of destructive deception if they actually are hearing from Him.
 
Obvious question: how do you know that it's God that all those people are hearing?

Based on interacting with those people who uncannily share similar experiences with my own.

I'm familiar with that belief, because I used to hold it. What actually happens is that a subset of people believe it happens when they try it, and so believe the experience can be universal. In some ways, it's like me believing that everyone can roll their tongues if they just try hard enough. I could believe them when they say they can't, or I can believe they're deceiving themselves. The 'rolling tongues' is a good example, because it will be harder for some people than others due to neuroanatomy, but the easier someone finds it to be, the harder time they have understanding that other people can't do it. Not without just believing them.

I will be claiming basically the opposite of you, that you need to be "intelligent" in order to realize that what you think is God, isn't actually God. That it's only "rationality" that allows you to second guess whether you're actually listening to yourself.

I'll put quote marks around 'intelligent' and 'rationality', because I'm referring to a nebulous cognition, which is not captured in the colloquial use of those condescending words. I'll use my example again to reframe. My person's sincere belief and love for God couldn't clue him in that it wasn't God telling him to do stuff. But, for him to realize that it wasn't actually God (but his own mind) required a long, long time. And, it won't just be the one, I've seen too many people's lives severely damaged because they sincerely believed they were listening to God.

I'm a former Christian, from the cohort that believed in personal communion. I know it comes across as condescending when I use those quote-marked words, but I'm truly trying to not be. I'm even trying to be the opposite, I truly do believe that the people I know who believe they commune with God are actually incredibly sincere in their efforts and perception. I think they're good people trying to be good people, loving people who are trying to be loving. But because it's been put into their heads that God talks to them, dissonance prevents them from deducing when (in real time) it's their own thoughts and when it's not. It takes a lot of hubris for me to insist that they're not actually hearing God, I understand. But, He sure engages in a lot of destructive deception if they actually are hearing from Him.

Very good answer. I can see what you mean. Yes I agree that this subject can be very complex to some and simple to others. Not sure why but all I can say is that it must be due to differences in upbringing, education, life experiences, etc.

Why do you think He engages in a lot of destructive deception?
 
Based on interacting with those people who uncannily share similar experiences with my own.
How is it uncanny when you share the same mythology? It follows you'd have similar mystical experiences. If you were raised Hindu you'd probably have uncannily similar mystical experiences w other hindus.
 
Not sure why but all I can say is that it must be due to differences in upbringing, education, life experiences, etc.

Temperaments are varied, yup. Within household, even.
 
Very good answer. I can see what you mean. Yes I agree that this subject can be very complex to some and simple to others. Not sure why but all I can say is that it must be due to differences in upbringing, education, life experiences, etc.
The last option will have to be neurobiology. The reason you can see color and I cannot is not from "upbringing, education, life experiences", it's a difference in neurobiology.
I know it doesn't fit with the faith that simple biological differences would make 'being saved' harder for some than others, because that seems intensely unfair. But, to swing back to Job, it can be simple biological differences that determine the ease by which one's psychology allows one to be grateful for life. Not differences that make life harder, but neurochemistry that allows one to handle that suffering.

Why do you think He engages in a lot of destructive deception?

To be clear, I don't think that. I don't believe God is talking to the people who think they're hearing from God. But, the horror I've seen from people sincerely trying their best to obey God's commands is very, very high. But that's an extreme end, there will be an entire scale. All that's required to see that scale is to simply believe that people were being sincere in their efforts, sincere in their perceptions of 'that feeling', and then watching the outcome.
 
Forgiveness is freely offered, eternally, for no cost. Just get back up, if you can. Or don't, if you can't. We get horsehocky when we say it, but why would it better without suffering? The most "blessed" I see are often the worst to their fellow man. First class passengers are more aggressive, more violent, more cruel. The path we walk shapes who we are, too. I think we're tracking fundamentally different goals of "good."
 
Holy smokes, no. Forgiveness is not freely offered. The Lord's Prayer specifically requests that it be contingent on forgiving others.
All these people walking around believing they're 'forgiven' have no mechanism to distinguish pride from faith without remembering that bit. I've pointed out that they don't even have enough faith to move mountains, but Jesus explicitly (is quoted) says that even miracles aren't really the best evidence that someone is actually a follower. It's actually easier to do supernatural things than be a True Follower, it's write there, written down.

But that's a different story from the 'pray to talk to God' story. I don't believe people talk to God, but I 100% subscribe to the fact that we live in a world where it's impossible to be good, and therefore everyone is a bit evil. And, that the only way out of this is deliberate love and deliberate forgiveness, and then making peace with your own fallibility. It can never be perfect, but it can always be better.
 
How is it uncanny when you share the same mythology? It follows you'd have similar mystical experiences. If you were raised Hindu you'd probably have uncannily similar mystical experiences w other hindus.

Well the best example I can give, which is not the only example but one which quickly comes to mind, is the amount of people having rapture dreams. YouTube rapture dreams and you'll find hundreds of videos of people, both believers and non believers, having the same type of dreams. I guess one could argue that due to people being aware of the 'same mythology' it's easy to fake these testimonies. I would use your own discernment to compare all the evidence and make a decision for yourself on whether these are fake copy cat testimonies or not.
 
Holy smokes, no. Forgiveness is not freely offered. The Lord's Prayer specifically requests that it be contingent on forgiving others.
All these people walking around believing they're 'forgiven' have no mechanism to distinguish pride from faith without remembering that bit. I've pointed out that they don't even have enough faith to move mountains, but Jesus explicitly (is quoted) says that even miracles aren't really the best evidence that someone is actually a follower. It's actually easier to do supernatural things than be a True Follower, it's write there, written down.

But that's a different story from the 'pray to talk to God' story. I don't believe people talk to God, but I 100% subscribe to the fact that we live in a world where it's impossible to be good, and therefore everyone is a bit evil. And, that the only way out of this is deliberate love and deliberate forgiveness, and then making peace with your own fallibility. It can never be perfect, but it can always be better.

It is not an admission price. Though I do sort of wonder if forgiveness of self is a learned skill that needs honed. You are cracking into denominational differences. Faith is sort of the opposite of pride. It takes a passion to learn the difference, it seems to me.
 
Biblical inerrancy is not a universal Christian belief. There are many Christians for whom the Bible is not "Holy Writ". If one accepts that faith is the key salvation, a holy book may be important but it does not have to dominate one actions. Evangelicals get most of the Christian publicity, but they do not dominate Christian America.
i was religious for a few years, abrahamist. i believed that jesus' revelations as per the modern bible outlined that the only just and sacred society was centered somewhere around pacifist egalitarian anarchism

while i have since lost my faith, i cringe a lot at the fact that so many christians embrace sacred tradition over scripture. like sure religious liturgy is fine, but swearing by literal virtue of the bible without the quote being present is tiring. it's not that sacred tradition isn't religiously legitimate either - just quote the right thing. if jesus is the infallible party, don't embrace things completely contrary to what he said

 
@Angst I did not think you were so old or wore hankies in your pocket..... :mischief:
 
Well the best example I can give, which is not the only example but one which quickly comes to mind, is the amount of people having rapture dreams. YouTube rapture dreams and you'll find hundreds of videos of people, both believers and non believers, having the same type of dreams. I guess one could argue that due to people being aware of the 'same mythology' it's easy to fake these testimonies. I would use your own discernment to compare all the evidence and make a decision for yourself on whether these are fake copy cat testimonies or not.
Not necessarily fake or copycat but when you introduce a concept like rapture to hundreds of millions of people it's not surprising a few hundred or thousand even have similar dreams.

Just like lots of people have similar ufo experiences, doesn't make it real, it's a type of mass hypnosis. Like mesmerism.
 
Top Bottom