That Baghdad Bob pic is the equivalent of today's Scalia dissent.
OT survey results
- Thread starter Atticus
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Tarquelne
Follower of Tytalus
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I've only scanned the last few pages, yet I'm still going to jump to a conclusion and be disturbed about not seeing "self-selecting poll" or "self-selection bias" anywhere.
sophie
Break My Heart
This is a false equivalency though. There were no mentions that the sci and tech should be merged with humor and jokes because it is not an issue that a large proportion of the forum cares about or has spilt pages upon pages of threads upon threads about. This is.
Just tossing this out there....
Some people I know, people without nearly the forum admining experience of the people here at CFC, tossed together a forum on this software....
Which I can't tell if it's exactly the same software as here, but it's at least related....
And didn't have any problem enabling both a "reputation" rating icon, which is those bottle shaped things under my username and the title VIP, and a "thanks" system, which is below the Avy, which shows how many times I've thanked others for their posts and how many times I've been thanked for how many posts I've made.
just throwing that out there....
Some people I know, people without nearly the forum admining experience of the people here at CFC, tossed together a forum on this software....
Which I can't tell if it's exactly the same software as here, but it's at least related....
And didn't have any problem enabling both a "reputation" rating icon, which is those bottle shaped things under my username and the title VIP, and a "thanks" system, which is below the Avy, which shows how many times I've thanked others for their posts and how many times I've been thanked for how many posts I've made.
just throwing that out there....
You keep missing the point that it would have been helpful for you to have more concrete information on that particular question, and asking that particular question would not have prevented asking other questions or people from offering opinions on other aspects of Colosseum organization.
Nobody suggested it was a joke. It would be an odd pairing by anyone's standards. I only meant that it would, in spite of being a bizarre combination, be a suitable place for one specific type of science-related humor (Chemistry Cat is a popular meme at ICHC).
Right... I was supposed to give you feedback on the questions BEFORE you posted them?
Not cool, Atticus. Moderators should not troll members (or anyone else).
I compare this process to Canadian constitutional debates because it's just so damned mixed up and s-l-o-w.
Ask me sometime about Meech Lake, the Charlottetown Accord, and other such things in the Canadian Politics thread in IALS. I won't go into it here, except to say that this CFC process we're going through reminds me of how not to either give or get clarity in the political process (and yes, this CFC exercise is a political process).@Valka - I didn't realize constitutional referendums were impossible in Canada.
Bravo. It needs asking, but it also needs being acted on, once you have the results. And you need to decide on what constitutes a "majority" of opinion beforehand, whether it's "50% +1" or 2/3, or whatever.
The thing is that you CANNOT conclude that if somebody omits saying they're in favor of something that they really oppose it. Yes, they may have forgotten to mention their opinion, but they may also not genuinely care either way. You can't say that fence-sitters are on one side or the other. That's why they're called fence-sitters.
Does anyone know which version CFC uses? Not that it should matter, though, since the last time I belonged to a vBulletin forum that used the reputation system was 7 years ago - and I know we use a version that's newer than that!Just tossing this out there....
Some people I know, people without nearly the forum admining experience of the people here at CFC, tossed together a forum on this software....
Which I can't tell if it's exactly the same software as here, but it's at least related....
And didn't have any problem enabling both a "reputation" rating icon, which is those bottle shaped things under my username and the title VIP, and a "thanks" system, which is below the Avy, which shows how many times I've thanked others for their posts and how many times I've been thanked for how many posts I've made.
timtofly
One Day
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- Sep 28, 2009
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- 9,445
In the post above yours, camikaze mentions v3.
That post was made while I was composing mine, so I didn't see it.
BvBPL
Pour Decision Maker
My vote is no to both. Like systems just become popularity contests. Masses of "likes" in a post serve to drown out other posts.
I consider a yellow or red infraction card to be the equivalent of 100 likes and 10 dislikes.
VBulletin does have a feature where you can disable the reputation system in your preferences if you don't want to participate (similar to disabling seeing avatars and sigs). I would assume it would be the same for a "like" system.
NickyJ
Retired Narrator
Then why did you bother doing a poll at all? I mean, if we're supposed to put together essays, why not just say so and be done with it?
But that this is a large issue means that people are more likely to say it aloud if they support it. It means also that they say more probably if they oppose it, yes. The bottom line however is that the only reasonable way to read the results were that if some change wasn't suggested, the poster didn't (actively) support it.
But still, that all is moot, since we've said from the begining that this isn't considered as a poll on the issue, and even if it were, it's the admin's choice that in the end matters. (Although, youi seem to be talking about this from the theoretical point of view too).
In more general terms, and not directed at Owen: CFC is like a restaurant. You can tell the owner that you don't like the My Little Pony poster he has hanged on the wall, and he probably appreciates to hear what people think. In the end it's his restaurant though, he puts up the work for it, and he decides what hangs on the wall. That is not to say that he wouldn't appreciate feedback. Most business owners do.
Similarly, we want to hear your opinions, yes. But what will happen is no matter of democracy. I'm sure the numbers of Hobbs' poll will have an effect on Ainwood's decision, and more over the arguments laid down for each side will matter. But at the end it's his decision, not yours and not mine.
You can wish him to do something, but not demand.
Not cool, Atticus. Moderators should not troll members (or anyone else).
Sorry if that was said more harshly than necessary, but your posts there didn't give the impression that you've read what has been written here. As a second point, you're getting just the same amount courtesy as you put forward. Actually, you've got it much more. Try to write your posts more politely, and you will get more polite replies.
[I'll ask a supermod for a review if that was out of line from me, though]
For the reasons Atticus just explained. Converting the answers to percentages provides a nice snapshot of opinions, but given the absence of any sort of democratic process here, 51% of people being in favour of something doesn't have any additional significance to 49% of people being in favour of something. What might be significant is a vast majority of people telling us the same thing. The individual responses in the survey are more of use to us. Yet essays would not be particularly useful, because we're unlikely to have the time to read them. When seeking the opinions of a large number of people, economy is important.
As an expansion on what Atticus has just explained, one of my more experienced colleagues recently noted that CFC could be better described as a monarchy than a dictatorship, given the derivation of power from property rights (namely, those of Thunderfall). The site administration act as the agents of Thunderfall, and the remainder of staff act as the agents of the site administration. Thus, the paramount duty of moderators is to carry out the will of site administration, even where this comes into conflict with the interests of any particular subset of forum members. As it so happens, the will of site administration is generally not in conflict with the interests of forum members (thus forum members are allowed to make use of Thunderfall's property). But where there is conflict, the interests of forum members must yield. The upshot of this is that the will of the majority of forum members is only relevant where this influences the will of site administration. Moderators are bound to act according to the instructions imposed by site administration, regardless of what forum members think. For better or worse, moderators are not accountable to forum members, but to site administration. That is simply the nature of the property of CFC. It's simply an explanation of reality, not a description of how an ideal Workers' Republic of OT would function.
It must be remembered, however, that the site administration is quite keen on having an active community (not necessarily in having an active OT community specifically, but at least in having an active site). Thus, where a clear and vast majority of users express a particular opinion, that is quite likely to strongly influence the decision-making process of site administration (a process which is assisted by the counsel of moderators). Where opinion is divided, or where the numbers don't point towards a commanding majority, that influence wanes, and what becomes more important are the respective arguments for the positions that the admins could take.
Just to make a note on the current poll (which is confusingly entitled 'opinions on the forum split', when the poll question is actually asking about the remerge, which is a different thing), to head off what is bound to be said: the poll does suggest that a strong majority are in favour of a remerge. Other polls have suggested something similar. The survey results did not. Our interpretation of the survey results is not an interpretation of other polls, but of the answers provided by those answering the survey. The results of extrinsic polls do not change what these answers said.
I just question why King Thunderfall has delegated so much to court jesters.
I question why an outdated ruling system keeps getting used as justification. I enjoy Atticus's joking dictatorship comments on the first post. However, the analogy keeps getting touted in a more serious manner.
We know democracy is great. We know that in many cases it's better than other systems. We know that people prefer it regardless of how great it is. So why not give the people what they want? You say this isn't a democracy - it bloody well should be. Just because it isn't, doesn't excuse taking actions as if it isn't.
Now I understand that you can't have a true democracy under CFC's governance framework. Some things can't happen regardless of public interest. But at least try to make it work like a democracy. Admitting that it isn't, is acceptable, especially when explaining why change may be slow or impossible. Using it as a crutch and constant reminder, however, gives the impression that you're not even trying to have a democracy here. That will inadvertently lead to some grumpy posters, since appearances matter.
We know democracy is great. We know that in many cases it's better than other systems. We know that people prefer it regardless of how great it is. So why not give the people what they want? You say this isn't a democracy - it bloody well should be. Just because it isn't, doesn't excuse taking actions as if it isn't.
Now I understand that you can't have a true democracy under CFC's governance framework. Some things can't happen regardless of public interest. But at least try to make it work like a democracy. Admitting that it isn't, is acceptable, especially when explaining why change may be slow or impossible. Using it as a crutch and constant reminder, however, gives the impression that you're not even trying to have a democracy here. That will inadvertently lead to some grumpy posters, since appearances matter.
AlpsStranger
Jump jump on the tiger!
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Precisely. This is kinda the "cream" rises to the top deal, isn't it? I doubt political opinion could get more homogenous in OT, but you never know.
Maybe you can get it to merge into a literal hive mind?
@Defiant - no, we're not trying to have democracy. If we were, we'd just have a straight vote. We are, however, interested in opinions. More now than ever before. Yet democracy imports notions of accountability, obligations and distribution of power that are entirely inappropriate. The constant reminder is to be open about how things stand in the context of people talking about numbers and majorities, rather than to hoodwink you into thinking you're going to change anything with a vote.
The last year or two has seen a shift towards collaborative decision-making, whereby we moderators are generally more solicitous of feedback, and open to community opinion. But the underlying relationship between staff and members hasn't changed, nor can it unless Thunderfall so allows. Increased openness is simply a change in the extent to which moderators take into account the opinions of forumites, when proposing a course of action to the site administration. That's giving people more of a say, but it's not democracy in any real sense at all. And we don't want to pretend that it is.
The last year or two has seen a shift towards collaborative decision-making, whereby we moderators are generally more solicitous of feedback, and open to community opinion. But the underlying relationship between staff and members hasn't changed, nor can it unless Thunderfall so allows. Increased openness is simply a change in the extent to which moderators take into account the opinions of forumites, when proposing a course of action to the site administration. That's giving people more of a say, but it's not democracy in any real sense at all. And we don't want to pretend that it is.
Well said, and a fair point then.
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