Panetta: So far, DADT A "Non-Event"

There wont be any investigation, because as I pointed out, what was done was under the law as written, and a valid part of military regulation.
The policy was intended to prohibit the witch hunts which occurred anyway. It certainly wasn't intended to allow heterosexual women to be forced to have sex against their will, much less remove them from the service under DADT.

I've given plenty of links and proof to back up what i've said. And of everyone here, i'm the only one who's career was actually involved in a lot of this. I've told the truth about my experience in dealing with this issue. If that upsets you.../oh well.
That is simply not true. Ironically, you provided data which corroborated my own which you previously stated the following:

No, you dont. All you know how to do is cut and paste something from a wiki page which is grossly insufficient to clearly profile the issue. Without proper context, such information is nothing more than propaganda. For example, in comparison, we were admin discharging two to three times as many people a year for various types of mental illness. Discharges solely for homosexuality were actually quite rare over the last 12 years and were grossly overshadowed by discharges for other reasons, like drug use, and other types of misconduct.
Emphasis mine.

So only only you can provide "proper context" by continually trying to claim that virtually all the DADT cases were voluntary where the individual wished to leave the service and used it as an excuse to do so? You haven't provided any evidence whatsoever that this is true. You even tried to claim it was true in the specific case I presented which was patently false.

Furthermore, you still haven't addressed the gaping hole in this "logic". If it were true, there would be no need for DADT in the past, much less trying to resurrect it in the future.

Bottom line, being discharged for homosexuality was one of the most rare discharges the military processed, and it was declining even more and more in the last decade. There simply wasnt what many here would make it seem.
"Bottom line", it doesn't matter how "rare" it was. It still ruined the military careers of well over 12,000 servicemen who served their country, many of whom were decorated heroes.

I mean, really, if that were indeed the case, wouldnt the numbers have gone up over time instead of gotten smaller? :confused:
The numbers got smaller because various attempts were finally made to rein in the witch hunts. Eventually, only COs could initiate DADT terminations. And even that policy was eventually changed due to abuses so that it required Pentagon approval to do so.

The DADT witch hunt will be judged quite harshly by history, just as segregation was. There is no place for blatant discrimination and persecution in a free and open democratic society, much less the sexual assault of females which is still largely not prosecuted.

The solution is simple. The military should no longer be allowed to police themselves in criminal matters. Hopefully, this is just one more nail in that eventual coffin.
 
The policy was intended to prohibit the witch hunts which occurred anyway. It certainly wasn't intended to allow heterosexual women to be forced to have sex against their will, much less remove them from the service under DADT.

Said witch hunts were the exception, not the rule. No system is perfect, form. Just like the simple fact that gays are now allowed openly in the military, harassment of them will still occur on occasion too.

Drop the 'heterosexual women forced to have sex' bit too. Yes, we know sexual harassment occurs in the military - but again, what you are talking about is the extreme exception.

That is simply not true.

Its precisely true. I provided you the official study on the issue from a few years back.

So only only you can provide "proper context" by continually trying to claim that virtually all the DADT cases were voluntary where the individual wished to leave the service and used it as an excuse to do so?

I didnt say 'virtually all', but I think a significant number of them absolutely did, and in my personal experience in working on such cases, it was a majority.

Form, how many homosexual discharge cases have you worked on in the military? Would you say my professional experience in this field exceeds your own?

You haven't provided any evidence whatsoever that this is true.

Yes, I have. My earlier link referenced it.

You even tried to claim it was true in the specific case I presented which was patently false.

The point with your specific case is that the individual in it had to disclose his sexuality, and that he was having gay sex with men. Under DADT his command had no choice but to discharge him for that as that is precisely how the regulation was written. There was no 'witch hunt' of him, but once that bell is rung, it cannot remain unacted upon.

Furthermore, you still haven't addressed the gaping hole in this "logic". If it were true, there would be no need for DADT in the past, much less trying to resurrect it in the future.

Of course there was a need for it since I never alleged that wrongdoing didnt exist.

"Bottom line", it doesn't matter how "rare" it was. It still ruined the military careers of well over 12,000 servicemen who served their country, many of whom were decorated heroes.

Again, the way DADT ran was that it was upon the individual to self-disclose their sexuality or sex practices in a manner which made it apparent regulatory action needed to be taken. You inference that all 12,000 was some kind of witch hunt meant to ruin careers is grossly false.

The numbers got smaller because various attempts were finally made to rein in the witch hunts.

Right. As with any policy, it took a number of years to ensure that commanders understood how DADT worked, and that they adhered to the regulation as written. Not because the service was somehow more accepting of homosexuals within the ranks, but because of oversight of the DADT program itself got better.

Eventually, only COs could initiate DADT terminations.

Eventually? Form, that was always the case from day 1. Only commanders have the authority to initiate administrative discharge for whatever reason.

And even that policy was eventually changed due to abuses so that it required Pentagon approval to do so.

That change wasnt until months prior to the policy itself being changed. It was during the DoDs survey period, and response back to congress regarding implemention that that occurred.

The DADT witch hunt will be judged quite harshly by history, just as segregation was. There is no place for blatant discrimination and persecution in a free and open democratic society, much less the sexual assault of females which is still largely not prosecuted.

I assure you sexual assault is indeed prosecuted in the military. I work on such cases all the time.

The solution is simple. The military should no longer be allowed to police themselves in criminal matters. Hopefully, this is just one more nail in that eventual coffin.

That is just ridiculous.
 
Mob, Form: you are both making pretty convincing cases as to why DADT was stupid and gays should have always been able to serve openly.

Mob: You don't stop harrassment by telling the victim "make like you aren't gay" you stop it through education and punishing harrassers. That is basically telling women that they shouldn't dress provactively or its their fault for getting raped.
 
Say1988, you have no idea the amount of training and emphasis that the military puts on stopping sexual harassment. There are specific systems and representatives placed in units that their only job is to ensure proper reporting and handling of each and every act of harassment that is reported. And those that do indeed sexually harass and assault other soldiers are dealt with harshly.
 
Why is DADT needed?

You say that a negligable amount of people were thrown out of the military for being gay where they weren't actibely trying to get out. You have also said that a soldier could effectively let others know he was gay without any reprecussions (as long as he didn't just go up to an officer and say it). So the law was not fullfilling its stated intent.

You have also argued for it on the basis of preventing sexual harassment. And you are saying the military has effective policies in place, so that is not necessary.

Every post you make is a more effective arguement against DADT than Form's arguments.
 
Mobby, if i were to concde the need for DADT out in the field of combat (and I'm not talking about some centralized area in combat zones, but actual combat units away from the centralized area in a combat zone), can you justify DADT for other jobs in the military?
 
Why is DADT needed?

Because there was a absolute absence of regulation concerning the treatment of homosexuals in the service up to that point.

You say that a negligable amount of people were thrown out of the military for being gay where they weren't actibely trying to get out.

Actually, some were actively trying to get out. You see, it was the one ironclad method to break out of ones contract and still get an honorable discharge under DADT. In essence, all one had to do was claim to be a homosexual.

You have also said that a soldier could effectively let others know he was gay without any reprecussions (as long as he didn't just go up to an officer and say it).

I never said this. Telling another soldier violates the 'dont tell' portion of 'dont ask, dont tell'.

You have also argued for it on the basis of preventing sexual harassment. And you are saying the military has effective policies in place, so that is not necessary.

Of course it is necessary because the military in general has a much worse problem with sexual harassment in its ranks that most civilian business do. Much worse.

Every post you make is a more effective arguement against DADT than Form's arguments.

Then you are misunderstanding my points.

Mobby, if i were to concde the need for DADT out in the field of combat (and I'm not talking about some centralized area in combat zones, but actual combat units away from the centralized area in a combat zone), can you justify DADT for other jobs in the military?

Jolly, given the fact that there is even a push to have women in combat arms units now, I cant really say. The military is headed into uncharted territory over the next few years, and i'm not sure whether it will be a benefit or a harm to our nation. Needless to say, i'm kinda happy I am retiring from service when I am because I got a sneaky feeling its about to get real stupid.
 
I never said this. Telling another soldier violates the 'dont tell' portion of 'dont ask, dont tell'.

I thought the 'don't tell' meant 'don't tell anyone you're gay and we won't ask if you're gay' (in other words, being gay is a 'crime' [for want of a better word], but it's not going to be actively investigated) - that image posted a few pages ago seems to suggest that 'telling' on another soldier was actually accepted, if not outright encouraged.
 
Oh noes, women and gays in the US military! :run:

What's next? French people?

MobBoss. Are people in the military allowed to discuss their families, their weddings or have family pictures?
 
Because there was a absolute absence of regulation concerning the treatment of homosexuals in the service up to that point.
What regulation is needed? Whatever it is, the proper response is to create the regulation, nat "make gays pretend they are straight."

Actually, some were actively trying to get out. You see, it was the one ironclad method to break out of ones contract and still get an honorable discharge under DADT. In essence, all one had to do was claim to be a homosexual.
As you have said, its primary use was as a loophole to get out of the military without fulfilling your commitment with no consequences. I am saying that is a pretty good reason to not have it.

I never said this. Telling another soldier violates the 'dont tell' portion of 'dont ask, dont tell'.
Every gay person I have ever met I (and others around me) knew they were gay well before they said anything. It is pretty easy to let someone know without actually saying it, especially if you live with them.

Of course it is necessary because the military in general has a much worse problem with sexual harassment in its ranks that most civilian business do. Much worse.
Then the military needs to get improve its training and/or repsonse to harassment. Deal with the problem, don't just make the victims pretend it doesn't exist.

Then you are misunderstanding my points.
I am. You are just coming to a terrible conclusion.
1) It should not be a penalty free way of getting out of your committment. If you want something like that, then it should be created as such not a loophole in some other law.
2) Don't punish the victims for sexual harassment.
 
Because there was a absolute absence of regulation concerning the treatment of homosexuals in the service up to that point.

As Say said, just create the regulation and be done with it, rather than pandering religious morals about homosexuality. If people are willing to die for your country, you don't be complete arses to them and treat them like second-class citizens.
 
As Say said, just create the regulation and be done with it, rather than pandering religious morals about homosexuality. If people are willing to die for your country, you don't be complete arses to them and treat them like second-class citizens.

Amen. I remember (this was back in the sixties, so there weren't many Commonwealth soldiers around relative to today) when we were told that we were getting a new soldier in from Bermuda, and our Sergeant said 'boys, as far as youse are concerned everyone in this platoon is green - when you step out in your uniform, the civvies don't see a black man or a white man, they just see the uniform'.
 
Mob, Form: you are both making pretty convincing cases as to why DADT was stupid and gays should have always been able to serve openly.
I certainly appreciate the irony in that statement.

Say1988, you have no idea the amount of training and emphasis that the military puts on stopping sexual harassment. There are specific systems and representatives placed in units that their only job is to ensure proper reporting and handling of each and every act of harassment that is reported. And those that do indeed sexually harass and assault other soldiers are dealt with harshly.
It certainly doesn't seem to work given how many women are forced to have sex against their will, while the military does little or nothing to stop it. As I keep mentioning, many of these victims were even persecuted for being gay because they refused to have sex.


Every post you make is a more effective arguement against DADT than Form's arguments.
Indeed. As always, I am a staunch proponent of the First Amendment for that very reason.
 
I thought the 'don't tell' meant 'don't tell anyone you're gay and we won't ask if you're gay' (in other words, being gay is a 'crime' [for want of a better word], but it's not going to be actively investigated) - that image posted a few pages ago seems to suggest that 'telling' on another soldier was actually accepted, if not outright encouraged.

Your correctly interpret DADT. "Telling" on a fellow soldier is a bit more difficult to assess (in other words, commanders had to consider the validity of the source, and if any other known facts supported the allegation), and it still is predicated by a legal review to see if the specifics of a homosexual soldier crossing the 'tell' line themselves somehow.

MobBoss. Are people in the military allowed to discuss their families, their weddings or have family pictures?

Yes, and Ziggy, homosexuals have been able to do that as well without outing themselves to their fellow soldiers.

What regulation is needed? Whatever it is, the proper response is to create the regulation, nat "make gays pretend they are straight."

DADT was indeed made into regulation.

As you have said, its primary use was as a loophole to get out of the military without fulfilling your commitment with no consequences. I am saying that is a pretty good reason to not have it.

A lot of soldiers would agree with you.

Every gay person I have ever met I (and others around me) knew they were gay well before they said anything. It is pretty easy to let someone know without actually saying it, especially if you live with them.

My experience (in college) was different. My wife and I had a couple of friends in college who werent sure they were gay or not.

Then the military needs to get improve its training and/or repsonse to harassment. Deal with the problem, don't just make the victims pretend it doesn't exist.

We do deal with the problem. Every. Single. Day. My point to you is perception isnt always the actual reality.

I am. You are just coming to a terrible conclusion.
1) It should not be a penalty free way of getting out of your committment. If you want something like that, then it should be created as such not a loophole in some other law.

Well, your military record is forever marked for the reason you were discharged, and you carried a re-enlistment code that prevented future military service.

2) Don't punish the victims for sexual harassment.

We dont. But we do punish people for false report; and that occurs as well.

The ship sailed a little over 9 years ago.

My point was its about to get even worse.

It certainly doesn't seem to work given how many women are forced to have sex against their will, while the military does little or nothing to stop it. As I keep mentioning, many of these victims were even persecuted for being gay because they refused to have sex.

Again, Form, the allegation you make about women being forced to have sex against their will just isnt as widespread a problem as you make it out to be. Give it a rest will ya? Its a red herring, nothing more.
 
We dont. But we do punish people for false report; and that occurs as well.
That is exactly what DADT is, if, as you say, it is about stopping discrimination.

DADT was indeed made into regulation.
Yay for circular reasoning: DADT is needed because of DADT. The only regulation that should be needed regarding gays serving in the military is already covered under other laws regarding harassment etc.

What was the point of DADT?
There are three claims i have seen, and all are either just wrong or should be dealt with differently.

1) To discourage gays from serving/force them out - Morally indefensible
2) To prevent discrimination - This should be done by training and response to complaints. If what is being done now is insufficient than more needs to be done. Period.
3) Some people feel uncomfortable around gays and may not function to peak efficiency - Again, training. And if, in the end, some soldiers can't do their job in an appropriate manner, then they should face consequences, not every homosexual doing his or her job.

A lot of soldiers would agree with you.
I don't care whether they (or you) agree that such an escape clause should exist or not. If it does exist it should be its own regulation with whatever penalties Congress and the military deem appropriate. It should not be a loophole in some random law.
 
Again, Form, the allegation you make about women being forced to have sex against their will just isnt as widespread a problem as you make it out to be. Give it a rest will ya? Its a red herring, nothing more.
I'd hardly call thousands of women forced into having sex or being persecuted for being lesbians a "red herring".

Why Women Suffer More Under Don’t Ask Don’t Tell



It seems odd that women, who comprise a smallish percentage of the armed forces, would suffer more under Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, the military’s policy on closeted gay, lesbian or bisexual service members, but Janice Formichella, writing for Jezebel, has some alarming statistics to prove it. Formichella explains,

“Although women made up only 15% of the armed forces in 2008, 34% of service members discharged under were women. This dynamic varies greatly between the various branches of service. For instance, women make up only 20% of members in the air force, yet made up 62% of Air Force discharges under DADT (2008).”

Formichella continues, saying that although gay servicewomen are clearly more negatively impacted by the policy, the effects extend to all servicewomen, regardless of their sexual orientation. Women are subjected to harassment based on speculation about their sexual orientation, known as “lesbian baiting”; this is also used as a form of intimidation.

According to a Service Women’s Action Network (SWAN) factsheet, racial minorities are also disproportionately affected by DADT. Their statistics report that “non-white active duty service members represent 29.4% of the total military population, but comprise 45% of all DADT discharges in 2008.”

The work of organizations like SWAN proves a disturbing point: that although a majority of Americans think that gay people should be able to openly serve in the army, the military is still deeply uncomfortable with anyone serving within its ranks who is not a heterosexual white man.

LESBIAN BAITING IN THE MILITARY: INSTITUTIONALIZED SEXUAL HARASSMENT UNDER “DON’T ASK, DON’T TELL, DON’T PURSUE”

Seattle Times: Military Women Complain `Lesbian-Baiting' By Men

WASHINGTON - Army Reserve Lt. Victoria Hudson says her boss constantly propositioned her and asked her to "write him erotic letters."

But when Hudson, who served with a military police unit in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War, complained, it was she who came under investigation.

"They thought I was a lesbian," Hudson said.

Her complaint went nowhere, and she feels she "basically got blackballed" for future assignments in reprisal for accusing the major.

Women vets call it "lesbian-baiting" and say it's an all too common - and potentially career-ending - response to charges of sexual harassment in the military.

Schroeder, a senior member of the House Armed Services Committee, has sponsored legislation to give whistle-blower protection to women who say servicemen have propositioned and abused them.

Such legislation has gained support since reports of last year's Tailhook Association convention in Las Vegas, where 26 women - 14 of them Navy or Marine officers - were groped and forced to run a gantlet of drunken fliers.

Schroeder said the pervasive fear among servicewomen bringing harassment complaints is that "the person she was accusing could immediately step forward and accuse her of having a different sexual preference than that permitted by the military."

That happened to Tanya Domi, a former Army captain. She says that women are seen as a threat to the military's "old boys' " network, and "lesbian-baiting is a way of marginalizing women, of discrediting them."

On duty in Hawaii, Domi brought charges against a male captain who made a lewd sexual remark to her in front of another officer.

"Within a month, I came under investigation for being a lesbian," Domi said.

Guardian: Rape in the US military: America's dirty little secret

A female soldier in Iraq is more likely to be attacked by a fellow soldier than killed by enemy fire

"It was eight years before I was able to say the word that describes what happened to me," says Maricella Guzman. "I hadn't even been in the Navy a month. I was so young. I tried to report it. But instead of being taken seriously, I was forced to do push-ups."

"I can't sleep without drugs," says Kate Weber. "But even then, I often wake up in the middle of the night, crying, my mind racing. And I lie there awake in the dark, reliving the rape, looking for a second chance for it to end with a different outcome, but he always wins."

Rape within the US military has become so widespread that it is estimated that a female soldier in Iraq is more likely to be attacked by a fellow soldier than killed by enemy fire. So great is the issue that a group of veterans are suing the Pentagon to force reform. The lawsuit, which includes three men and 25 women (the suit initially involved 17 plaintiffs but grew to 28) who claim to have been subjected to sexual assaults while serving in the armed forces, blames former defence secretaries Donald Rumsfeld and Robert Gates for a culture of punishment against the women and men who report sex crimes and a failure to prosecute the offenders.

Since the lawsuit became public in February, 400 more have come forward, contacting attorney Susan Burke who is leading the case. These are likely to be future lawsuits. Right now they are anxiously awaiting a court ruling to find out if the lawsuit will go to trial. The defence team for the department of defence has filed a motion to dismiss the case, citing a court ruling, dating back to 1950, which states that the government is not liable for injury sustained by active duty personnel. To date, military personnel have been unable to sue their employer.

"For years, I thought I was the only person this had happened to, but it's an epidemic," says Weber, 36, who recounts being raped 16 years ago in Germany, and describes herself as a "high-functioning" sufferer of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) as a result.

Worse still, the victim is likely to be blackballed by her own unit, and sometimes even demoted, according to Weber. "I first tried reporting the rape to my staff sergeant, he told me to be quiet and not tell anyone. So then I tried to tell a woman sergeant, who was beneath him, because I thought she'd be more sympathetic. She just cursed me for jumping the chain of command and not coming to her first. I went to the doctor, who did at least make a record of it, but he did nothing. I also told my 'battle buddy', a fellow female soldier. She said, 'I know that guy. He's married and he would never do such a thing. You're a liar and a slut.' Before long, I was being called a whore and a **** by everyone. The guys were warning each other: 'This one will accuse you of rape, so stay away from her.' I was 18 years old, it was the first time I had ever been away from home. I had no idea what to do."
Sexual assault and harassment is rampant in the US military, yet nothing is done about it. At least DADT can no longer be used as an excuse to persecute women, even heterosexual ones.

Again, it is time to take the prosecution of criminals acts away from the military justice system which is unwilling, incompetent, or both to properly perform that job.
 
I'd hardly call thousands of women forced into having sex or being persecuted for being lesbians a "red herring". You don't seem to know what that phrase actually means.

Yeah, the original source is an article for an online site named 'Jezebel'. Yeah, that sounds very fair and balanced. Dont you think, just for an instant, that a feminist editorial website might contain, oh I dont know, feminist spin on such claims?. :rolleyes:

Let me ask you, Form. Is it really a stretch of the imagination to consider that more lesbians as a percentage would join the armed forces than gay men? If you think about it, doesnt it actually make sense? Then following that logic, wouldnt it stand to reason that more lesbians would be discharged (again, as a percentage) than men would be?

Of course it would. But that wouldnt appease feminists. To get them riled up, you need to make an unsupported allegation like 'lesbian baiting' to really get the readership going.

If you really read that article, the spin it gives off is more than apparent. This is classic 'correlation = casuation' false logic. The writer assumes the reason more females (again as a percentage) are discharged under DADT is because of 'lesbian baiting' without actually making the argument to support the allegation.

Now, I'm not saying the military doesnt have a sexual harassment problem. It assuredly does. But in no way is that some clandestine attempt to bait lesbians into revealing themselves. That notion is just flat out ridiculous.

Sexual assault and harassment is rampant in the US military, yet nothing is done about it.

This is a totally false statement and an outright lie. We have entire regulations and personnel dedicated to fully investigate each and every claim of sexual harassment; and then commanders are mandated to take appropriate action. I personally have worked myriad cases where those guilty fo sexual harassment or assault are charged and punished, and most often separated from the service for their acts.

At least DADT can no longer be used as an excuse to persecute women, even heterosexual ones.

It never was, unless of course you buy the propaganda that some feminist website tries to sell.

Again, it is time to take the prosecution of criminals acts away from the military justice system which is unwilling, incompetent, or both to properly perform that job.

Actually, Form, the military has a higher conviction rate than its civilian counterparts. Would you really like to see more criminals get off scott free?
 
The so-called "conviction rate" is only because lay-ups are ever prosecuted in the first place, while the person who was found guilty is frequently paroled after a very short period of time, frequently after the case is appealed.

"Military justice" is an oxymoron. It is time it is ended forever. They are clearly incapable of actually policing themselves due to the obvious conflict of interest. This is particularly true with the persecution of women under DADT, including heterosexual ones.

Again:

“Although women made up only 15% of the armed forces in 2008, 34% of service members discharged under were women. This dynamic varies greatly between the various branches of service. For instance, women make up only 20% of members in the air force, yet made up 62% of Air Force discharges under DADT (2008).”

According to a Service Women’s Action Network (SWAN) factsheet, racial minorities are also disproportionately affected by DADT. Their statistics report that “non-white active duty service members represent 29.4% of the total military population, but comprise 45% of all DADT discharges in 2008.”

That is a national disgrace. Not only is it a persecution of women, it is racist as well.
 
The so-called "conviction rate" is only because lay-ups are ever prosecuted in the first place, while the person who was found guilty is typically paroled a very short period of time.

Form, this is just more of your well known anti-military hated, with no basis in reality. Do you have any main-stream proof (i.e. not some left-wing nut ala loose change website dealing in propaganda) to validate your claim here?

"Military justice" is any oxymoron. It is time it is ended forever.

You have absolutely no clue as to what you are talking about. None. Kind of like how you linked articles almost 20 years old to try and allege something that simply isnt the case today and hasnt been for quite some time. How about you link some articles from the civil war period to make your case how blacks are persecuted as well, eh?
 
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