patriotism?

[Traitorfish]

Only I don't think that at all. It is more like Democrats bad; Republicans bad, overly authoritarian, and hypocritical to boot. And it really has nothing to do with this issue. This is a matter of authoritarianism and feelings of superiority which granted are far more prevalent on the right side of the political spectrum in the US.

Well, at any rate, the distinction you pose serves not as a critical examination of either patriotism or nationalism as ideological phenomena, but to mark one nationalist tendency out as good an admirable, and another as bad and objectionable.

Is unifying a country the same as excessive authoritarianism bordering on fascism? Obviously not.

That's the problem, though: "national unification" is an overtly nationalist project- indeed, one that barely makes sense outside of a nationalist framework- and yet is not necessarily authoritarian and exclusionary, let alone "proto-fascist", as you insist that "nationalism" must be. The usage in the "patriotism/nationalism" distinction is incoherent with its usage in every other context.

But I think it is revealing that 2 out of 3 of those governments eventually did become quite fascist due primarily to excessive nationalism.

The Fascist Roots of the ROC

Well, aside from the problems inherent in imposing essentially European political categories on East Asian political movements, what do you suppose these developments "reveal"? Is there a direct line that can be drawn between Garibaldi and Mussolini, beyond a shared enthusiasm for shirt-based nomenclature and marching on Rome? Is there some reason that the right-wing of the KMT as represented by Chiang represented the logical progression of Sun Yat-sen's program, rather than Wang Jingwei's left-wing (or even Mao's Communist Party)? Neither seem obvious.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Well, at any rate, the distinction you pose serves not as a critical examination of either patriotism or nationalism as ideological phenomena, but to mark one nationalist tendency out as good an admirable, and another as bad and objectionable.

Nope. I clearly stated that excessive nationalism is the issue. Merely unifying the country doesn't count. But others paint with a broader brush:

http://www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-nationalism-and-patriotism/

Nationalism and patriotism both show the relationship of an individual towards his or her nation. The two are often confused and frequently believed to mean the same thing. However, there is a vast difference between nationalism and patriotism.

Nationalism means to give more importance to unity by way of a cultural background, including language and heritage. Patriotism pertains to the love for a nation, with more emphasis on values and beliefs.

When talking about nationalism and patriotism, one cannot avoid the famous quotation by George Orwell, who said that nationalism is ‘the worst enemy of peace’. According to him, nationalism is a feeling that one’s country is superior to another in all respects, while patriotism is merely a feeling of admiration for a way of life. These concepts show that patriotism is passive by nature and nationalism can be a little aggressive.

Patriotism is based on affection and nationalism is rooted in rivalry and resentment. One can say that nationalism is militant by nature and patriotism is based on peace.

Most nationalists assume that their country is better than any other, whereas patriots believe that their country is one of the best and can be improved in many ways. Patriots tend to believe in friendly relations with other countries while some nationalists don’t.

In patriotism, people all over the world are considered equal but nationalism implies that only the people belonging to one’s own country should be considered one’s equal.

A patriotic person tends to tolerate criticism and tries to learn something new from it, but a nationalist cannot tolerate any criticism and considers it an insult.

Nationalism makes one to think only of one’s country’s virtues and not its deficiencies. Nationalism can also make one contemptuous of the virtues of other nations. Patriotism, on the other hand, pertains to value responsibilities rather than just valuing loyalty towards one’s own country.

Nationalism makes one try to find justification for mistakes made in the past, while patriotism enables people to understand both the shortcomings and improvements made.

Summary:

Patriot: Expresses the emotion of love towards his country in a passive way

Nationalist: Strives for independence and the interests and domination of a nation and expresses his love or concern for the country in an active political way.

While they are both similar in some respects, they are like night and day in others.

 

[red_elk]

I find patriotism really strange and it leads to all sorts of bad things.

I recently read a short article about biological roots of altruism, patriotism and religious fundamentalism. In brief, there is a conjecture that more solidary communities (people or animals) tend to be more successful and had more chances to survive. This creates a separate driving force for natural selection, group selection in addition to individual one. In some cases, specimen can sacrifice themselves to improve survivability of their group, and this was observed in animals.

I mean, patriotism (or altruism) can be a form of natural behavior, just as selfishness is.

 

[Flying Pig]

It's not quite that simple (group selection is an inherently flawed idea, because in order to subscribe to it you have to forget the mechanism at work here), but it's true that altruism has an evolutionary basis - Dawkins sets it out better than I ever could in The Selfish Gene

 

[Traitorfish]

Nope. I clearly stated that excessive nationalism is the issue. Merely unifying the country doesn't count. But others paint with a broader brush:

http://www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-nationalism-and-patriotism/


While they are both similar in some respects, they are like night and day in others.

And yet again you simply insist upon an arbitrary and incoherent distinction between "patriotism" and "nationalism" that exists in no other context but the contrived distinction between "patriotism" and "nationalism". Just because you can make a case that is internally consistent does not mean that it is consistent with anything beyond that case, and in this case the overwhelming evidence suggests that, no, it is not. Giuseppe Garibaldi was a nationalist, but he did not think that his nation was possed of any generalised superiority. Ditto Sun Yat-sen, ditto Pádraig Pearse, ditto Benito Juárez, Theodor Herzl, Ho Chi Minh, or any other of an almighty barrage of historical nationalists that I could name.

What it amounts to is taking the (in itself reasonable) identification between liberal nationalism and illiberal nationalism, and giving the two etymological unrelated labels so as to give the appearance of a similar ideological division between the two; the same word-games behind identifying "good" Marxism as "socialist" and "bad" Marxism as "communist", or "good" feminism as "equality" and "bad" feminism as "radical".

 

[Formaldehyde]

Again, I think there is a distinct difference between the level of nationalism used to unify a divided country as Garibaldi and Sun Yat-sen did, and that practiced by Mussolini, Chiang Kai-Shek, Franco, Hitler, Stalin, and even GWB and Reagan for entirely different reasons. This is specifically why I think that the real issue is excessive nationalism instead of all nationalism as some do.

It is no coincidence the most vehement nationalists in the US are the white supremacists. But in other countries it is the far-left who are predominately the authoritarian nationalists, not the far-right authoritarians as is the case in the US.

But this all seems to be an issue of semantics more than anything else:

I didn't realise that's what I was doing. If I'm wrong, and a patriot will consistently put other human beings above his nation, then patriotism is nothing more than an affection, and it doesn't seem that most self-described patriots would be over-eager about accepting that sort of claim.

I definitely think patriotism is nothing more than an affection, although it is certainly stronger in some than in others.

And no, most self-described "patriots" in the US are actually staunch nationalists who think their country is superior to all others and cannot stand for it to be criticized in the least. They think anybody who complains about it "hates America" and they should "love it or leave it". What they really object to is anybody even disagreeing with their opinions in these matters.

That isn't patriotism as I see it, because it would exclude almost all the real patriots who actually understand the Constitution and the First Amendment and who criticize the policies of the government all the time.

It is excessive nationalism instead.

 

[red_elk]

It's not quite that simple (group selection is an inherently flawed idea, because in order to subscribe to it you have to forget the mechanism at work here)

Well, it's definitely not that simple, I wasn't going to explain everything in three lines of text. As for group selection, the conclusion of the article, if I remember it correctly was that it can work in some conditions. The author also referred to Dawkins, saying that he recognized possibility of high-level selection, just that it's much less effective than selection on genome level.

 

[MobBoss]

How about all those who were essentially forced into joining the military due to the recent recession? Are they patriots for merely getting on the government dole?

If you think joining the military is some kind of welfare, then I suggest you join up and experience it firsthand. Protip: its a hard job and a hard life. I'd expect you to have a bit more respect for it since your father was also in the military - or do you consider his service in the same light? That he was unemployable and had to join the 'government dole' in order to support his wife and kid? Or are you going to allege your dad was somehow different and wasnt on the dole at all?

Right. This is why your're not a patriot, and never will be. Your outright hatred of soldiers volunteering to serve their country outrages you no end, even to the point where you have to belittle their service, although many have been horribly wounded or killed outright in same service you revile.

Pathetic.

 

[JollyRoger]

Didn't realize patriotism involved love of a bloated institution.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Mobby's "outright hatred" of anybody who has different opinions of the government and the military is an excellent example of what patriotism and understanding of the Constitution and Bill of Rights actually isn't. But it is certainly a classical example of excessive nationalism, and why any widespread outbreaks are so dangerous in a free and open democratic society.

As for me, I don't hate anybody, even those who hate me.

 

[MobBoss]

Mobby's "outright hatred" of anybody who has different opinions of the government and the military is an excellent example of what patriotism and understanding of the Constitution and Bill of Rights actually isn't. But it is certainly a classical example of excessive nationalism, and why any widespread outbreaks are so dangerous in a free and open democratic society.

As for me, I don't hate anybody, even those who hate me.

Anybody? No. Just certain people who equate soldiers volunteering to serve their nation as being deadbeats looking for a handout or as crazed murderers joining up so they can kill brown skinned people.

Thank God that the vast, vast majority of decent people dont think that way.

 

[LucyDuke]

selfless service via the military

You get paid bro.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Patriotism means putting loyalty to a fictional entity above loyalty to actual human beings, and is therefore fundamentally objectionable.

You would object to my loyalty to Batman being stronger then my loyalty to the President?

 

[holy king]

You get paid bro.

he even lives the life of a european.

 

[Core Imposter]

Patriotism I veiw as a positive but I no longer relate it to this nation as I did in past decades. I see now the duty of patriots in America to oppose this Federal government and to restore liberty to the people of our land by means certain, if not yet determined.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Patriotism

Ziggy likes patriotism.

 

[holy king]

yeah, but in football the laws and logics of the real world do not apply.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

That explains why Ziggy doesn't like patriotism in the real world. (and that was a baseball fan by the way)

Patriotism in a nutshell is being proud of what others have achieved and trying to claim some of it since they happen to live within the same borders.

Perfectly acceptable in football/sports. Completely bonkers otherwise.

 

[Core Imposter]

That explains why Ziggy doesn't like patriotism in the real world. (and that was a baseball fan by the way)

Patriotism in a nutshell is being proud of what others have achieved and trying to claim some of it since they happen to live within the same borders.

Perfectly acceptable in football/sports. Completely bonkers otherwise.

MisterCooper likes the idea of Ziggy in a nutshell.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

You actually can put the idea of Ziggy in a nutshell