patriotism?

[Formaldehyde]

Patriotism means putting loyalty to a fictional entity above loyalty to actual human beings, and is therefore fundamentally objectionable.

I don't see that at all. It certainly isn't true for me. I think you are confusing patriotism with nationalism.

 

[MobBoss]

I don't see that at all. It certainly isn't true for me. I think you are confusing patriotism with nationalism.

OMG, please, oh please dont tell me you think you are a patriot.

 

[Berzerker]

i think yer both patriots - for what its worth

 

[MobBoss]

i think yer both patriots - for what its worth

Then our definition of the word varies greatly.

 

[Quintillus]

What accomplishment are you talking about? My being born wasn't exactly the most commendable accomplishment. I had nothing to do with my being born in America, it wasn't my choice and it wasn't a product of my conviction, it was an accident of circumstances beyond my control.

I am a part of America, however America is such a big place I'm very miniscule in my importance. My being part of America is a result of me living here. It's not difficult to live. I shouldn't feel pride at doing something that's not difficult; it's like Ali being prideful about punching a six-year-old and knocking the child out. It's unwarranted.

I have blue eyes. That's part of my identity. Should I be prideful of that too?

That summarizes my views well, too. Patriotism implies something between being proud of your country and thinking it's better - basically because you were born there. So, should you also be proud of your race, sex, and eye color and think they're better than the alternatives because you were born that way?

 

[Glassfan]

That summarizes my views well, too. Patriotism implies something between being proud of your country and thinking it's better - basically because you were born there. So, should you also be proud of your race, sex, and eye color and think they're better than the alternatives because you were born that way?

Basically because it's a fine country - and I was born there.

 

[Flying Pig]

OMG, please, oh please dont tell me you think you are a patriot.

I don't think you can ever be 'wrong' about being a patriot, in the same way you can't be 'wrong' about being a Gloucester supporter (of course, Quins supporters are all 'wrong' however you look at it)

 

[Leoreth]

Patriotism means putting loyalty to a fictional entity above loyalty to actual human beings, and is therefore fundamentally objectionable.

Now don't force your definitions upon others.

OMG, please, oh please dont tell me you think you are a patriot.

Haha, "people who disagree with me can't be patriots!". It's this kind of misunderstood patriotism that's giving the term a bad name.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

Quins supporters are all 'wrong' however you look at it)

Not the Quins RL supporters

 

[Formaldehyde]

OMG, please, oh please dont tell me you think you are a patriot.

You seem to be confused over the difference between patriotism and nationalism, which isn't surprising in the least. Nationalists such as yourself typically make lousy patriots because they really don't understand that dissent of absurd governmental policies doesn't mean hatred of a country. It typically means just the opposite.

Nationalism breeds fascism, not freedom and liberty. The only really negative thing that patriotism usually breeds are hangovers from excess celebration on occasions such as the US hockey team beating the Soviets in the 1980 Olympics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_on_Ice

In 1999, Sports Illustrated named the "Miracle on Ice" the Top Sports Moment of the 20th Century.[1] As part of its 100th anniversary celebrations in 2008, the International Ice Hockey Federation (IIHF) chose the "Miracle on Ice" as the century's number-one international ice hockey story.[2]

 

[red_elk]

Patriotism implies something between being proud of your country and thinking it's better - basically because you were born there.

Patriotism means being proud of your country (hometown, school) achievements.
Implying that your country is better than the others is nationalism.

"My country built new advanced spaceship" - patriotism.
"My country #1" - nationalism.

 

[Traitorfish]

I don't see that at all. It certainly isn't true for me. I think you are confusing patriotism with nationalism.

No, I can quite easily see someone adopting a nationalist position on humanitarian grounds. (I think that they would be almost certainly mistaken in this, but that's another matter.) A patriot, on the other hand, pledges his loyalty to the nation as a point of principle, as something done for its own sake and regardless of the well-being of those of other nationalities, which makes it an essentially anti-humanitarian position. If somebody is sincerely committed to humanity itself, and I don't doubt that a lot of self-described "patriots" are, then it seems to me that their alleged patriotism is less a point of principle and more a rhetorical affection.

Or perhaps a sense of pride and accomplishment of being part of something that makes up your identity as a human being?

I don't have a problem taking pride in their culture or origins, but patriotism is an explicit affirmation of loyalty to "the nation" above other human beings. That's problematic in a way which enjoying bagpipe music simply is not.

Now don't force your definitions upon others.

I didn't realise that's what I was doing. If I'm wrong, and a patriot will consistently put other human beings above his nation, then patriotism is nothing more than an affection, and it doesn't seem that most self-described patriots would be over-eager about accepting that sort of claim.

Patriotism means being proud of your country (hometown, school) achievements.
Implying that your country is better than the others is nationalism.

"My country built new advanced spaceship" - patriotism.
"My country #1" - nationalism.

See, I don't get that. It's a definition of "nationalism" that you only ever seem to encounter in the specific context of distinguishing it from "patriotism", and it's completely incoherent with the term is otherwise used. Very few Scottish nationalists actually think "Scotland #1", for example, but that doesn't mean that they are not nationalists, or that they are not generally described as such. It's a definition that seems to exist purely as a tortured way for liberal nationalists to suggest some fundamental distinction between themselves from right-wing nationalists.

 

[red_elk]

...but patriotism is an explicit affirmation of loyalty to "the nation" above other human beings.

I'm not sure I quite understand your position here. What in your opinion is the difference between nationalism and patriotism?

See, I don't get that. It's a definition of "nationalism" that you only ever seem to encounter in the specific context of distinguishing it from "patriotism", and it's completely incoherent with the term is otherwise used. Very few Scottish nationalists actually think "Scotland #1", for example, but that doesn't mean that they are not nationalists, or that they are not generally described as such. It's a definition that seems to exist purely as a tortured way for liberal nationalists to suggest some fundamental distinction between themselves from right-wing nationalists.

The "#1" thing was just an example.
The core difference, as I understand it, is respect to the other nations. You can celebrate national holidays, be proud of your country, etc., but as long as you respect people of other nations and don't consider your nation inherently superior, you are not nationalist.

 

[aronnax]

What accomplishment are you talking about? My being born wasn't exactly the most commendable accomplishment. I had nothing to do with my being born in America, it wasn't my choice and it wasn't a product of my conviction, it was an accident of circumstances beyond my control.

I am a part of America, however America is such a big place I'm very miniscule in my importance. My being part of America is a result of me living here. It's not difficult to live. I shouldn't feel pride at doing something that's not difficult; it's like Ali being prideful about punching a six-year-old and knocking the child out. It's unwarranted.

I have blue eyes. That's part of my identity. Should I be prideful of that too?

Go ahead, if you think that having blue eyes is an important part of your identity, feel prideful. To me, I am a proud alumni of my school, of my cultural heritage as a Foochew/Teochew Chinese. But just because I feel proud of the cultural and social traditions of my ethnicity and the achievements of my school, doesn't mean I think it's better than other ethnicities and other schools.

At the very worst, I cheer a little louder and want my school to beat other schools in competitions and results. But I don't go all crazy over that.

Yes, no one chose where they are born into and who we are born to. But the fact that people grow up in a certain lifestyle, surrounded by certain ideals and assimilated said ideals into their identity, gives them the very privilege of being proud of it.

I can forever stand in front of the American Constitution and while appreciative of its significance and awed at its importance, it can never personally mean anything to the way singing my School Rally does. Simply because America is not my identity while my school is.

 

[Traitorfish]

I'm not sure I quite understand your position here. What in your opinion is the difference between nationalism and patriotism?

Nationalism is a political program, while patriotism is a sentiment. In practice, the two tend to overlap, but the two are not intrinsic to each other. A pure civic nationalism could be described as non-patriotic, while there are many historical examples of component nationalities within larger political formations expressing both a strong sense of self-identity and a political loyalism- the Scots in imperial Britain, for example.

The "#1" thing was just an example.
The core difference, as I understand it, is respect to the other nations. You can celebrate national holidays, be proud of your country, etc., but as long as you respect people of other nations and don't consider your nation inherently superior, you are not nationalist.

But that's what I meant: plenty of people who would we would identify as "nationalists" make no such claims. In Britain, we have three significant nationalist movements- Irish, Scottish and Welsh- and none claim any inherent superiority over anything. One could similarly point to the liberal nationalists who participated in the revolutions of 1848, or the various left-wing nationalists who participated in the postwar anti-colonial insurgencies. It's a use of "nationalist" that is simply incoherent with how the term is actually used, historically or contemporarily.

 

[Mango Elephant]

snip

This seems very bizarre. I try to shy away from anything prideful (because I tend to have a problem being humble and that's a problem) and the thought of being prideful about an identity just seems inherently wrong and immoral. Pride in ancestry especially seems wrong to me. Pride in accomplishments I can see as being acceptable to extents, but not much else.

Pride skews perceptions of the world, which if not harmful physically is mentally dishonest. If one can see the world clearly even with pride that might be okay, but I don't think that ever happens. I think it's detrimental to mind and character. It's a bad habit. I think the reason it's the most deadly sin and hubris was so condemned in Ancient Greek myths is very manifest in humans.

It's better to write objectively than subjectively, but subjective writing is needed for this topic because I'm an extremely prideful person which skews my perception of what pride is for most people, so what's true for me might not be true for you. However, I think regardless of my prejudice my arguments have ground in most minds. But perhaps they don't. That's the reason for the subjectivity.

 

[Formaldehyde]

he core difference, as I understand it, is respect to the other nations. You can celebrate national holidays, be proud of your country, etc., but as long as you respect people of other nations and don't consider your nation inherently superior, you are not nationalist.

That is how I perceive the difference as well. I see patriotism as being basically benign while nationalism is where the loyalty and authoritarian aspects come into play. Most everybody loves their country at least to some extent, while far less think their country is superior to all others. That they have an inherent right to dominate everybody else. That they will support and defend their government no matter what atrocities it commits:

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. Howard Zinn

I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually. James A. Baldwin

I realize that patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell

I distinguish, between nationalism and patriotism. Michael Ignatieff

Christianity has not conquered nationalism; the opposite has been the case nationalism has made Christianity its footstool. Arthur Keith

In some states militant nationalism has gone to the lengths of dictatorship, the cult of the absolute or totalitarian state and the glorification of war. Arthur Henderson

 

[red_elk]

But that's what I meant: plenty of people who would we would identify as "nationalists" make no such claims. In Britain, we have three significant nationalist movements- Irish, Scottish and Welsh- and none claim any inherent superiority over anything.

Then how does their nationalism expressed now, except cultural stuff?
Separatism?

 

[G-Max]

If you're American, then being patriotic is a good thing, and being unpatriotic is bad. If you're part of the other 95% of humanity, it's the other way around.

It's true. I heard it on the Fair and Balanced network.

 

[holy king]

pride is, amongst other things, what get's you into hell accorcing to christians.