Plan for Mosque III...

[Cutlass]

I hear you VRCWAgent. If you recall, I was one of the few who defended GWBs decision to try and award that port security contract to a company from the middle east. Do you remember that?

But similar to that situation, the public outcry was such that that particular contract was cancelled.

In this particular case, I happen to think the concern far more valid than the opposition to the security contract thing was.

I am merely opposed to the mosque at this time because its going to damage muslim/non-muslim relations. Things are simply still too emotional over 9/11. Once things cool down, and relations improve (hopefully by an concerted effort by all involved) then perhaps the issue should be re-visited successfully. But right now, excercising their right isnt going to 'bring peace' its going to have the opposite effect.

Sure they can build it now since they have the legal right to do so. But its not a good idea, and I for one, think its going to 'cause problems.

I also think your wrong in labeling the protest the way you have. Legal protest is just a part of our constitutional freedom in this country as freedom of religion is. I think you equate verbal opposition to the mosque as opposition to Islam in general, and I dont think that is the argument of the majority against the mosque being built so close to ground zero. I know its not my particular point, and so I dont see this protest being against a religion inasmuch as simply being against a bad idea of the mosque planners.

See my point?

Opposition to the mosque is doing far, far, more damage to America/Muslim relations. Opposition to the mosque is convincing many future terrorists that there really is a war by America against Islam.

 

[MobBoss]

Why would their race matter Mob

Apparently it matters to you since you brought it up.

Me? I was simply being truthful in telling the situation. If it bothers you that they were hispanic then take it up with them. I am sure they would agree with you, since they also thought it was racist for their neighbors from both sides and across the street to call the cops on them so often. Perhaps they can come live by you, and you will all get along famously.

Opposition to the mosque is doing far, far, more damage to America/Muslim relations. Opposition to the mosque is convincing many future terrorists that there really is a war by America against Islam.

Could explain why the mosque planners arent interested in compromise. Maybe they arent peace bringers at all and we are just falling into their trap.

What do you think?

 

[Defiant47]

Two blocks is too close. Many people simply driving to Ground Zero would drive by the mosque. That is offensive.

If a religion can be practiced at point A, it can be practiced at point B, with exceptions being made for sacred places such as Mecca.

Why is it offensive?

If I become a Christian and start killing people around my neighbourhood, would it be offensive if they started opening up various Christian churches around the neighbourhood where I did my killing spree?

 

[useless]

No wonder they hate America and by extension the West, when we do our best to make them feel unwelcome and like 2nd class citizens!

 

[Defiant47]

Opposition to the mosque is doing far, far, more damage to America/Muslim relations. Opposition to the mosque is convincing many future terrorists that there really is a war by America against Islam.

The way I see it, opposition to the mosque seems to be regarded as this irreversible and immutable force that Muslims should just learn to deal with - for the good of all.

While the desire for a mosque from the Muslims isn't seen as equal in its immutability or importance.

 

[useless]

Apparently it matters to you since you brought it up.

Me? I was simply being truthful in telling the situation. If it bothers you that they were hispanic then take it up with them. I am sure they would agree with you, since they also thought it was racist for their neighbors from both sides and across the street to call the cops on them so often. Perhaps they can come live by you, and you will all get along famously.

Sorry, why couldn't you have just said "neighbors"? What does their race have anything to do with it, unless you're trying to imply that because they are hispanic they somehow are more skilled at being drunk and fighting.

 

[caketastydelish]

Eran of Arcaida replied to me in the second mosque thread, saying something along the lines of: Some of the Muslims against this are only against this because they are afraid of the backlash, and that is not something to be proud of.

My response: Well first of all, that's not necceserily true. If you look at the site, they were mainly talking about why there religion was against it, not because they are afraid of discrimination. And as a middle eastern american myself (although i'm not muslim) I HAVE faced discirmination myself before. Infact, someone one pushed me down at school and said "I'll blow you up like your people blow up our buildings" among other racist things. And yes, I am concirned that this mosque will only lead to more discrimination. However that is NOT the main reason I am against it. Even if I wasn't faced with any discrimination nore was there a threat of it, I"d still be against this. Why?

Because it is un-American! That is why! This is clearly in bad taste, and obviously not a good idea. They don't even have the money to fund this mosque so it probably won't happen anyway. I think they're building this mosque "just to show everyone they can" rather than, to legimtally worship God. As a Christian (if you are Christian) would you want a Christian church somewhere that was bombed in the middle east? I certainly wouldn't. It would be an embarassment to christanity, and that being said you can't blame these muslims for being embarassed for this mosque. They are not just building it to worship God. They're building this to push it, and bother people.

As stated before, not only is it un-american, but it is un-islamic! Islam is a peaceful religion, and I don't care what the extremist of Islam say otherwise. Islam would never approve of something to offensive, and quotes from the koran can back me up.

And finally: Even if they ARE worried about discrimination (which I don't think is the case) that's still a reality we have to deal with? Even if you LIKE this mosque being built for some reason, let me ask you this: Which is the lesser of the two evils? This mosque not being built, or Muslim and middle eastern americans faced with loads of discrimination every day of their lives? Let me give you a hint for the answer: Most muslims either don't care about this mosque, or are against it.

 

[MathNerd]

I know this sounds contradictory, but I personally don't mind the mosque. I wouldn't really care if it were placed on Ground Zero.

However, I have sympathy for the people who are offended.

 

[Defiant47]

I know this sounds contradictory, but I personally don't mind the mosque. I wouldn't really care if it were placed on Ground Zero.

However, I have sympathy for the people who are offended.

You think they have a valid reason for being offended? Or are you giving them sympathy just for sheer idea that they are offended?

 

[Cutlass]

Could explain why the mosque planners arent interested in compromise. Maybe they arent peace bringers at all and we are just falling into their trap.

What do you think?

An American who is doing nothing wrong, who is suddenly attacked for political purposes by demagogues, would be entirely in the wrong to back off.

Why don't the people who are 100% in the wrong, and are pissing all over fundamental American values, like, for example, you, back the frak off?

 

[useless]

What exactly defines "American"? Being white? Being Christian?

 

[MobBoss]

Why is it offensive?

If I become a Christian and start killing people around my neighbourhood, would it be offensive if they started opening up various Christian churches around the neighbourhood where I did my killing spree?

Probably. How about the Westboro Baptist Church opening up a branch in a predominately gay neighborhood in San Fran, or South Beach in Miami, or Philidelphia?

Dont you think there would be some protestation to that?

You bet your sweet bippy there would be. And for good reason. It would be a terrible idea, although probably perfectly legal on the part of the WBC to attempt.

An American who is doing nothing wrong, who is suddenly attacked for political purposes by demagogues, would be entirely in the wrong to back off.

So...you stand on the record as you would support a WBC church going into a gay community? That the WBC shouldnt back off?

Pardon me if I have a really hard time believing that one.

Sorry, why couldn't you have just said "neighbors"? What does their race have anything to do with it, unless you're trying to imply that because they are hispanic they somehow are more skilled at being drunk and fighting.

Nope. The vast majority of hispanics dont do that. Most I know are good people and really hard workers. Heck, one of my girls has a hispanic boyfriend and he is a great kid.

But those hispanics did exactly what I described.

Again, if you dont like hispanics doing that stuff..take it up with them.

 

[useless]

Because remember Islam extremists = All Muslims, hivemind and all they all wish to offend Americans

 

[Defiant47]

Probably. How about the Westboro Baptist Church opening up a branch in a predominately gay neighborhood in San Fran, or South Beach in Miami, or Philidelphia?

Dont you think there would be some protestation to that?

You bet your sweet bippy there would be. And for good reason. It would be a terrible idea, although probably perfectly legal on the part of the WBC to attempt.

Given that the opposition would be mainly due to irrational and flawed reasons, the protestation, while allowed to occur, should be ignored and discarded.

We're not going to get anywhere as a society if we allow ignorant bigotry to define our boundaries. "Lots of people would be pissed off, because of wrong reasons" should not affect such decisions - especially when we're talking about not just exercising a freedom (of religion, in this case), but doing it in such a way as to fill a need (there seems to be quite a need of mosques in that area).

 

[MathNerd]

You think they have a valid reason for being offended? Or are you giving them sympathy just for sheer idea that they are offended?

I can see why they would be offended. Their reasoning is quite legitimate, just it doesn't create much of an emotional response in me particularly.

 

[useless]

Probably. How about the Westboro Baptist Church opening up a branch in a predominately gay neighborhood in San Fran, or South Beach in Miami, or Philidelphia?

Dont you think there would be some protestation to that?

You bet your sweet bippy there would be. And for good reason. It would be a terrible idea, although probably perfectly legal on the part of the WBC to attempt.



So...you stand on the record as you would support a WBC church going into a gay community? That the WBC shouldnt back off?

Pardon me if I have a really hard time believing that one.

You're saying that he'd support something, even though when he was posting that message, your little "comparison" to a WBC church wasn't even up. Straw man + classy!

 

[Cutlass]

So...you stand on the record as you would support a WBC church going into a gay community? That the WBC shouldnt back off?

Pardon me if I have a really hard time believing that one.

And how is this relevent? You do know that there are over a billion muslims that do not hate the US, don't you? Why do you want them to start?

 

[caketastydelish]

What exactly defines "American"? Being white? Being Christian?

Neither. Not once in my post did I mention white people. And if I recall correctly, I did not mention Christians either.

 

[Defiant47]

I can see why they would be offended. Their reasoning is quite legitimate, just it doesn't create much of an emotional response in me particularly.

There's a difference between you being able to see why they'd be offended, and you believing their offense is legitimate.

You honestly believe that it is legitimate to be offended at the building of a mosque near ground zero of the WTC, simply because the extremists who caused 9/11 were Muslim? Do you have any idea how many Muslims there are in the world?

Would it also be cool for me to be offended at Christians setting up all these temples in my neighbourhood because in grade 5, a Christian classmate said some mean things to me?

Should small groups of people be completely representative of their entire ethnicity or religion, and the relevant ethnicity or religion be discriminated against on these grounds?

 

[MobBoss]

Given that the opposition would be mainly due to irrational and flawed reasons, the protestation, while allowed to occur, should be ignored and discarded.

Again, I get your're trying to be consistent.

Guess what...I dont believe you.

The WBC are reviled pretty much across the board. They would absolutely be protested heavily, just like they are already across America.

And that protestation wouldnt, absolutely WOULDNT, be written off as 'irrational and flawed' by anyone. In fact, it would be seen as legitimate due to the fact that the WBC are a bunch of turds in the punchbowl of America.

Thats simply a fact, your're objection notwithstanding.