Prostitution & Porn Legality/Morality?

[warpus]

If its legal consent, why does money have to change hands?

What?

If you legally consent to something, money can never change hands? I don't know what strange part of the world you're from, but here in Canada we have legal contracts and stuff - money changes hands all the time! It's called capitalism.

Sounds more like 'rape for dollars' to me, and as such, immoral in pretty much every aspect.

Rape with consent? You need to look up the definition of the word 'rape'.

 

[CaptainF]

Liberty is always moral.

/thread.

 

[Traitorfish]

/thread.

Well, yes and no; the sentiment is correct, but it's doesn't really express anything more than a very vague concept of "liberty", and one is largely inferred from context. A lot of the opposing views which have been voiced have expressed the sincere conviction that prostitution, pornography, etc. are harmful to liberty, or at least more harmful than they are beneficial, so it's worth explaining why those of us who favour one particular perspective- especially given that the route appears, to many people, suspiciously obvious- why we occupy the position which we do. A reasonable exchange of ideas is never a bad thing.
After all, if it was a clear cut as all that, it wouldn't've been the issue it has been for so long.

 

[Mise]

I think a great deal of the rarity is more due to the fact that people will pay decent money for the ability to experience other people in degrading positions. I know that social stigma is a huge part of it: if someone could visit a prostitute with the same shame that one rents 80s action movies, then the industry could clean up easily. But I think that it's very likely that the evil component of porn and prostitution cannot be excised.

Anecdotal stories of girls choosing prostitution as a temporary way to earn cash, with no shame attached, would help create that type of market. I don't know if it will help remove the market for terrified girls who cannot speak the language, and who have no hope of anyone rescuing them.

Would de-stygmatising prostitution make things worse than they are now?

 

[Berzerker]

Well, yes and no; the sentiment is correct, but it's doesn't really express anything more than a very vague concept of "liberty", and one is largely inferred from context. A lot of the opposing views which have been voiced have expressed the sincere conviction that prostitution, pornography, etc. are harmful to liberty, or at least more harmful than they are beneficial, so it's worth explaining why those of us who favour one particular perspective- especially given that the route appears, to many people, suspiciously obvious- why we occupy the position which we do. A reasonable exchange of ideas is never a bad thing.
After all, if it was a clear cut as all that, it wouldn't've been the issue it has been for so long.

how is sex for money or looking at a beautiful woman harmful to freedom?

 

[Mise]

The point is that it often involves coercion, which is of course the antithesis of freedom. The question is whether, with prostitution legal, there would be more or less coercion.

Though this is a different question to whether prostitution is, on the whole, moral.

 

[Tani Coyote]

Ok, since most people are of the opinion that looking at porn is moral/amoral, does that mean all of y'all would be okay with you're 11 year old son watching it?

I'd be okay with a son looking at it as soon as he hit puberty.

With a daughter, I'd be more protective because I don't want her to be influenced and end up pregnant.

I say let the market decide.

Indeed. Government censorship isn't necessary between the censorship retailers, producers, and parents can provide.

Liberty is always moral.

Though is that liberty negative, positive, or a mixture of both?

 

[Berzerker]

The point is that it often involves coercion, which is of course the antithesis of freedom. The question is whether, with prostitution legal, there would be more or less coercion.

Though this is a different question to whether prostitution is, on the whole, moral.

So why is it harmful to freedom for two people to exchange sex for money? Leave coercion out of it, I did... Are people here really arguing that prostitution is immoral because some people have been forced or coerced into it? That would condemn most religions...

The burden of proof is on those making accusations of immorality, if thats the best they have - throw stones at them

 

[Mise]

If you leave coercion out of it then of course no harm is done. The point is that there is a great deal of coercion involved in prostitution at present, and so to only treat prostitution as if there were no coercion would be myopic at best. El Mac has a point - if there is an unacceptable level of coercion (e.g. X% of all hookers are forced) then it is immoral.

And yes, I apply the same standards to religion

 

[El_Machinae]

Would de-stygmatising prostitution make things worse than they are now?

I have no idea. I can see viable arguments for both sides.
Prostitution needs to lose its (a) desperation and (b) coercion to become better than it is now.

Too many prostitutes are there because they are completely desperate and have insufficient social support to prevent their sliding need to use their bodies to get cash.

Would willing prostitutes be more numerous and more fairly treated if there was less stigma? I'd hope so. I don't know if less stigma would reduce the number of beaten and broken women who service lunchtime quickie-clients and who get shoved to the pavement with a $20 bill afterwards.

I was in court one day when the results of a 'john sweep' were being prosecuted. It broke my heart. Most people have no idea about how awful the lives of prostitutes are. I've also seen escorts, mind, but the street prostitutes were heart-wrenching

 

[Mise]

Well I can't think of a reason why it would get any worse. De-stigmatising doesn't just mean that more women will become prostitutes, it also means that clients won't treat them with the same social stigma as before; in otherwords, it means they will treat them with basic human dignity. If de-stigmatising does more of the former than the latter, though, it would be bad -- but I can't really see the former happening before the latter, let alone without the latter!

 

[warpus]

The question is whether, with prostitution legal, there would be more or less coercion.

Well, I assume that if it were legalized it would be highly regulated. This *should* reduce coercion.

 

[Traitorfish]

how is sex for money or looking at a beautiful woman harmful to freedom?

I wouldn't say it is. I'm just saying that some people believe it to be so, or at least to be necessarily associated with things which are, and they have as much right to make their voices heard as anyone else. We're not necessarily dealing with fundamentally different value systems here, just different interpretations.

 

[Mise]

The thing is, the more regulated it is, the larger the black market will be, logically.

Also, I read that child prostitutes (or teenage prostitutes, rather) are generally protected from nasty men by the older, more experienced prostitutes; if the older prostitutes move up-market, the young, illegal prostitutes will be driven into the hands of more nasty men. At least this is the argument I've read (argument made by a prostitute, if that makes a difference).

 

[El_Machinae]

Well I can't think of a reason why it would get any worse. De-stigmatising doesn't just mean that more women will become prostitutes, it also means that clients won't treat them with the same social stigma as before; in otherwords, it means they will treat them with basic human dignity. If de-stigmatising does more of the former than the latter, though, it would be bad -- but I can't really see the former happening before the latter, let alone without the latter!

I don't know how many johns have a taste for 'treating them with basic human dignity', though I guess mistreated prostitutes will have an easier time filing a police report. As well, you're correct, with a reduced social stigma, people (net) will treat prostitutes better.

 

[warpus]

The thing is, the more regulated it is, the larger the black market will be, logically.

Also, I read that child prostitutes (or teenage prostitutes, rather) are generally protected from nasty men by the older, more experienced prostitutes; if the older prostitutes move up-market, the young, illegal prostitutes will be driven into the hands of more nasty men. At least this is the argument I've read (argument made by a prostitute, if that makes a difference).

What should happen is a huge crackdown on the black market, which should force most people into the legal one.. at least in theory.

I'm not sure how to respond to your second point.

 

[Traitorfish]

The thing is, the more regulated it is, the larger the black market will be, logically.

Assuming that you're transitioning from low-regulation to high-regulation, yes, but this would be the reverse- "Everything Is Illegal" is pretty strict regulation, don't you think? After all, illegal alcohol manufacture in the United States hardly increased after they overturned prohibition.

Also, I read that child prostitutes (or teenage prostitutes, rather) are generally protected from nasty men by the older, more experienced prostitutes; if the older prostitutes move up-market, the young, illegal prostitutes will be driven into the hands of more nasty men. At least this is the argument I've read (argument made by a prostitute, if that makes a difference).

However, young prostitutes largely exist because the industry is illegal. A lot of them are runaways and drug addicts who fall through the cracks, and get drawn into an illegal industry that would have less place for them in a properly regulated system. Prostitution-as-lumpenproletariat is not an inherent status (nor is it universally true), but one which results from the contemporary stigma.
Of course, "properly regulated" is the tricky bit. Too often, legalisation is treated as a way of getting prostitutes off the streets and into backstreet brothels, with little interest in their actual conditions. Proper reform would require a concerted effort to reject the stigma associated with the industry, and a commitment to demarginalise sex workers and to improve their quality of life.

 

[Narz]

Ok, since most people are of the opinion that looking at porn is moral/amoral, does that mean all of y'all would be okay with you're 11 year old son watching it?

I would want my son to know what sexual intercourse is. I wouldn't particularly want him watching mainstream pornography but if he wanted to see what sex was I'd try to find the most loving example of it in a book or film. Why wait for an awkward sex education class in school?

Even 4-year olds know how babies are made (though I wouldn't show them a video of the exact process).

A man approached a woman in the bar and asked her,

"Would you have sex with me for a million dollars?"

"hmmmm, let me think about it" she said.

After a few seconds of silence, the man asked "Would you have sex with me for $20?"

Shocked, she says "Of course not. What kind of a girl do you think I am?"

He says "We've already established that. Now we're just negotiating for a price."

classic joke

I think that purchasing porn mainly gives big money to evil people, which is something I'm loathe to do.

Do you purchase fuel for your car & electricity for your home?

I agree most pornography is somewhat evil (woman as object to be rammed & tossed aside) but it all does not have to be that way. Pornography itself is not immoral (neither is heating one's home), it's the way it's generally done that's wrong.

Liberty is always moral.

That's a non-sequitur as it is always necessary to curtail liberty for public good (how much is the only question worth asking), unless you think we should all be able to walk around naked yelling fire & drinking forties.

 

[Narz]

Regarding coercion or desperation, I would say among Caucasian prostitutes working in the United States the amount that could not eat if they took a different job is close to zero. Certainly there are those who are coerced but this number would be reduced if prostitution was legal & these woman didn't have to rely on men to protect them (knowing they could never goto the police or relatives for help [imagining their relatives would shun them & the police would arrest them]).

 

[Traitorfish]

That's a non-sequitur as it is always necessary to curtail liberty for public good (how much is the only question worth asking), unless you think we should all be able to walk around naked yelling fire & drinking forties.

To be quite fair, that's the curbing of individual liberty for the sake of collective liberty, rather than an absolute restriction. I think the problem is that many people incorrectly conceive of "liberty" as the mere lack of explicit restrictions, rather than a state of individual autonomy.


This comparison occurred to me yesterday- in most of Asia, undertaking is traditionally seen as a shameful and "unclean" occupation, and so it the domain of the very lowest social class, a class which are essentially coerced into maintaining their low status. In Europe, it is seen as a respectable profession, and very much the domain of the middle class. The former are expected to feel shame and alienation as they undertake their work, the latter pride (albeit of a rather sombre sort); this clearly reflects nothing innate to the work itself, but the cultural baggage which shapes common perceptions of the occupation. What, I wonder, is so different about prostitution?