Qs about the plot of the new Star Wars trillogy: SW fans please help

[devilhunterred]

Palpatine controled Dooku, which is in turn the commander of seperatists.

He was also the chancellor, which in EP2 was given absolute powers over the Republic through the emergency act (an intentional reflection of how Hitler gained power through the Enabling Act) and thus controled the Jedi and clone armies.

So basially, Palpatine had complete control over the development and outcome of the Clone Wars.

Why not simply issue Order 66 right after gaining absolute powers to kill the Jedi? Why drag on the Clone Wars for an additional 3 years?

Second, the Jedi knew that Jango Fett was the biolgoical template for the Clone soldiers, who was also a bounty hunter working for Dooku. Furthermore, the mystery of Sifo-Dyas was never solved (he commissioned the creation of the clones without approval from the Republic or the Jedi Council, and died 20 years prior to Obi Wan's arrival on Kamino).

Given all the above unanswered questions, wouldn't the Jedi in the very least find the Clones to be suspicious?

 

[Fifty]

begun this weird thread has

 

[appian]

snip snip snip

 

[classical_hero]

Well here is the easiest way oto explain the prequels, al n 5 seconds.
Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
Revenge of the Sith

To answer your question, we have Lucas to blame for the plot errors.

 

[Dachs]

Why not simply issue Order 66 right after gaining absolute powers to kill the Jedi? Why drag on the Clone Wars for an additional 3 years?

It'd be tougher that way. Before the wars started, the Jedi were ten thousand strong and undistracted. A concerted attack, while it would certainly have netted quite a few Jedi, would not have eliminated the majority, who would have either been able to go into hiding or would have been able to regroup and carry on fighting elsewhere. The Clone Wars were essentially a way to hurt the Jedi badly without them being able to look behind their backs and notice what was going on right under their noses.

In addition, the amount of power the Chancellor had at the conclusion of Episode II can be overrated. He was still constitutionally bound within his emergency-powers-given role, and couldn't do a lot of the other stuff he later was voted during the course of the war. At the end of the conflict, he essentially had all of the power of an Emperor, which is why it wasn't that much of a change when he announced the formation of the Empire after the failed arrest attempt by Windu, Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar.

Second, the Jedi knew that Jango Fett was the biolgoical template for the Clone soldiers, who was also a bounty hunter working for Dooku. Furthermore, the mystery of Sifo-Dyas was never solved (he commissioned the creation of the clones without approval from the Republic or the Jedi Council, and died 20 years prior to Obi Wan's arrival on Kamino).

Given all the above unanswered questions, wouldn't the Jedi in the very least find the Clones to be suspicious?

Yep. But Jango Fett was clearly a man of ambiguity anyway. Not long before he was hired as the template, he helped Master Yarael Poof prevent a bomb detonation on Coruscant. He was a bounty hunter after all, and up for hire by anybody. It's not unreasonable to conclude that his recruitment as clone template and working for Dooku et al were unconnected events.

But the Sifo-Dyas question did pose a problem, and one that the Jedi ended up investigating somewhat. It's sort of difficult to pull of an inquest during wartime, but near the end of the conflict the Jedi started looking into Sifo-Dyas' death, as well as following up a trail on likely Sith. It actually led them to the building where Palpatine's penthouse residence was before the CIS attack on Coruscant called that off. Palpatine then had the non-Jedi portion of the investigation team killed and faked it as an accident from during the battle.

 

[Sharwood]

Palpatine controled Dooku, which is in turn the commander of seperatists.

Dooku considered himself more of a partner to Palpatine than an apprentice, whrreas Palpatine was simply using him as a means to an end all along, and discarded him when he was of no further use.

He was also the chancellor, which in EP2 was given absolute powers over the Republic through the emergency act (an intentional reflection of how Hitler gained power through the Enabling Act) and thus controled the Jedi and clone armies.

Not quite, he was voted emergency powers, not absolute powers. He didn't get those until after the attack on Coruscant itself at the start of Episode 3. He also had his term indefinitely lengthened between the films, making him an Emperor in all but name. But not until just before he took said name.

So basially, Palpatine had complete control over the development and outcome of the Clone Wars.

I wouldn't say complete, it was a war, but he had a great deal of power over its course. Dooku was actually in a position to win at one point, and had to back down because it didn't fit Palpatine's plans.

Why not simply issue Order 66 right after gaining absolute powers to kill the Jedi? Why drag on the Clone Wars for an additional 3 years?

Well he did issue said orders shortly after gaining absolute power. Dachs has given some reasons, but I'll give others. He only moved against the Jedi when he had no further use for them and they began to turn against him. Why discard a potentially valuable resource until you've achieved your goal? The Jedi were very useful, not just in the war effort but also in negotiations, freeing up Palpatine's time for other things.

Second, the Jedi knew that Jango Fett was the biolgoical template for the Clone soldiers, who was also a bounty hunter working for Dooku. Furthermore, the mystery of Sifo-Dyas was never solved (he commissioned the creation of the clones without approval from the Republic or the Jedi Council, and died 20 years prior to Obi Wan's arrival on Kamino).

Given all the above unanswered questions, wouldn't the Jedi in the very least find the Clones to be suspicious?

Bounty hunters are by nature mercenaries. Mercenaries go where the money is, so there's no contradiction with Fett playing both sides against the middle. Also, it should be mentioned that Dooku's Sith name was Darth Tyrannus, and that it was he who recruited Fett for the program, not Sifo-Dyas, who, if I remember correctly, was a friend of Dooku's - who used to be in the Jedi order - who Dooku and Palpatine manipulated into doing their bidding, then murdered. Also, he only died ten years prior to Kenobi's trip to Kamino. So wheels-within-wheels, making tracing them far more difficult.

Finally, don't try to think about the horrible new Star Wars episodes too hard. They're not worth the trouble. Grab "Outbound Flight" for a good Star Wars read instead.

 

[Masada]

Palpatine =Augustus

 

[Phlegmak]

There's nothing to explain about Episodes 1 - 3. They were simply bad movies that didn't make sense. Therefore, explaining them is a wasted exercise.

 

[GoodGame]

I think it's a case of backfilling the plot of eps 4-6 with eps 1-3, so when efficiency and logic battle keeping with the plot of 4-6, efficiency and logic always lose.

 

[Kozmos]

George Lucas wrote the script himself for the episodes 1-3. Need I say more?

 

[Sharwood]

George Lucas wrote the script himself for the episodes 1-3. Need I say more?

This is also why ROTJ was craptacular compared with ANH and the god-like TESB.

@Phlegmak: If you pay attention - difficult when they're so crap, I know - they actually do make sense, and it's a fairly clever underlying plot. There's just one problem. The films suck. They suck more than Jenna Jameson in a Las Vegas studio. They suck more than 100 baby lambs.

The scripts are terrible, the acting is worse, and Lucas felt the bizarre need to violate his own canon, just so he could pretend he actually had something to do with the original films' creative success, and it had nothing to do with the fact that someone else wrote the damn things for him by plagiarising Dune.

I once claimed I could write a better story in a day than Alien vs Predator: Requiem, then did so when challenged. I am just as convinced I could write a better trilogy than this tripe, though it would take a little longer, and I don't have the time so no-one ask. Terrible, terrible films. And he's making it worse by making cartoons and interfering in the books, previously the best part of Star Wars! Please, someone just kill him before he rapes the saga completely.

 

[El_Machinae]

The Emperor needed the Jedi to turn on him before he could do the execution order. The manipulated the rebellion so that that the government would give him more and more power.

 

[Phlegmak]

The scripts are terrible, the acting is worse, and Lucas felt the bizarre need to violate his own canon, just so he could pretend he actually had something to do with the original films' creative success, and it had nothing to do with the fact that someone else wrote the damn things for him by plagiarising Dune.

What part of the canon did Lucas violate? I keep hearing that, but I don't know which part he mangled.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

This is also why ROTJ was craptacular compared with ANH and the god-like TESB.

Jedi wasn't bad IMO, it was just that Empire was better.

 

[Patroklos]

Palpantine was playing forces he couldn't graple himself against each other to weaken them all for eventual takeover. He needed the Republic to defeat the seperatists because they really were a powerful rival. He needed the Seperatists to wittle down the Jedi because he wasn't powerful enough to confront them at their pique. Thats why he let the war drag on for a few years.

 

[Esckey]

@Phlegmak

Well other then some ******ed things like metichlorians and the 6 winged fighter that is obviously a predescor to the X-Wing and the need to ignore the Y-Wing(a fighter that would of been in use at that time) I offer the following quotes from the Good SW movies

Luke: Leia, do you remember your mother? Your real mother?

Leia does remember(can't remember the exact wording), even though in the prequels she dies very shortly after giving birth. Thats quiet the memory she has.

Imperial officer: Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerous ways Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has helped you conjure up the stolen plans...

Ancient religion? sorcerous ways? It happend 20 years ago and the imperial officer looks at least 40, how could he not know about the jedi order and the powers of the force?





I always thought the biggest reason behind the delay on Order 66 was to also get the Jedi order separated and seriously outnumbered by clone troopers. In the end it seemed to be one Jedi attached to each battalion of clone troopers and typically very far away from any neighboring Jedi

 

[Dachs]

This is also why ROTJ was craptacular compared with ANH and the god-like TESB.

Return of the Jedi is the only movie that has given me goosebumps. I started shivering when Vader says, "If you will not turn to the dark side, then perhaps she will!" and Luke goes ape and nearly kills him. Lucas made the decision to dump lightsaber artistry in that fight (for the most part) and focus on the psychological battle, and I think it was a fantastic idea.

And then there were the Ewoks.

 

[Gilder]

All must stand in awe at the power that George Lucas has to rape his own franchises.

 

[gnome]

Overall, ESB had the best quality... but nothing will beat the crowning awesomeness that was seeing Luke in action with his green saber for the first time. As far as Star Wars moments go, that was tops.

Good moments from the new series that made them almost worth it:

- Hearing the opening music in Phantom Menace.
- The first good look at Coruscant.
- All the Jedi revealing themselves at Genosha.
- The order 66 montage.

 

[Sharwood]

What part of the canon did Lucas violate? I keep hearing that, but I don't know which part he mangled.

Esckey's already offered a few points, but I'll offer more.

The difficulty is that Lucas pissed on everything that had been established in the books, which needed his permission to be published. Despite having final say over every book he completely ignored all of them. The only things to make it into the new films from the books were Xizor - seen on Tatooine during the Podracing scene, and even then not played by Michael Ironside and only recognisable as Xizor because some of the staff decided that he was Xizor, not just some random Falleen - and Coruscant. Coruscant only made it because Lucas couldn't think of a name and someone said "Let's just call it Coruscant already!"

Aside from the books, because I'd be here all day if I mentioned the violations of them:

The Republic and the Jedi Order were established as lasting a thousand generations before the Empire's establishment by Obi-Wan in A New Hope. Yet both are referred to as a thousand years old in the new series.

Obi-Wan's master was given as Yoda, not Liam Neeson - whose wife sadly passed away today.

Anakin Skywalker was "the best pilot in the galaxy" when Obi-Wan met him, not a 9 year old Podracer on Tatooine.

The Clone Wars started earlier and General Kenobi fought for Bail Organa.

The droids were owned by Captain Antilles, not Bail Organa, though conceivably Bail could have given them to the military.

Obi-Wan had never owned a droid, at least that he could recall. I think he might remember Artoo-Detoo, what with his apprentice owning the feisty little fella for years. And Obi-Wan himself owned several droids in the course of the war.

Kashyyyk's trees were supposed to be a hell of a lot taller - that's according to the awesomeness of the Star Wars Holiday Special.

Star Destroyers - "the big Corellian ships" - were supposed to be fairly new in the Classic Trilogy.

I could find more, but I'd have to think hard, and frankly I don't want to do that about the new series.

Jedi wasn't bad IMO, it was just that Empire was better.

Jedi had its moments, but as Dachs said, there were Ewoks . Why couldn't they hold it on Kashyyyk as originally planned? Wookies are far more believeable when it comes to kicking Imperial arse than teddy bears.

Return of the Jedi is the only movie that has given me goosebumps. I started shivering when Vader says, "If you will not turn to the dark side, then perhaps she will!" and Luke goes ape and nearly kills him. Lucas made the decision to dump lightsaber artistry in that fight (for the most part) and focus on the psychological battle, and I think it was a fantastic idea.

And then there were the Ewoks.

You didn't shiver at "No. I am your father!?" I did. The final battle between Luke and Vader was probably the coolest part of all three films, except maybe for Vader turning on Palpatine.

Overall, ESB had the best quality... but nothing will beat the crowning awesomeness that was seeing Luke in action with his green saber for the first time. As far as Star Wars moments go, that was tops.

Good moments from the new series that made them almost worth it:

- Hearing the opening music in Phantom Menace.
- The first good look at Coruscant.
- All the Jedi revealing themselves at Genosha.
- The order 66 montage.

The score from the new films was the awesome. I imagine it in my head all the time when reading Star Wars books now. Jaina's fall to the Dark Side - a bright moment in a terrible book and series, really should have prolonged it - and C'baoth's attempt to murder Thrawn while Doriana activated the bombers need to be filmed with that score. It's just necessary. C'baoth's death in The Last Command also needs it, especially when Han is trying to shoot him and it just aint working.

The Order 66 montage was great, as was Anakin going ape and killing Tuskens - God that confession scene needed talented actors, I could do more with it than those two treestumps did - and the scene with the younglings in the temple. The line: "So this is how liberty ends. With thunderous applause," is also quality.

Other than that there wasn't much goodness. Yoda finally getting it on in AOTC was a cool moment, but he should have effed up Dooku without trying. A full-scale Force war was what was needed, not a lightsabre duel. I can only imagine what a Yoda-Bffashi Jedi type fight between Yoda and Palpatine could have been like. The Jango Fett-Obi-wan Kenobi fight was pretty cool too, it established that Fett could hang with a Jedi despite not being one himself.