Question Evolution! 15 questions evolutionists cannot adequately answer

[Ajidica]

Whoops, my bad. I'll change it.

 

[Midgard Eagle]

First, give me a full record, then we'll talk.

Why this outrageous standard of evidence? The fossil record isn't our evidence for evolution in the first place.

Again, FACT vs THEORY.

Okay, this is just wilfull ignorance. When we've explained what a scientific theory is to you several times over and you just keep repeating this, you have departed from serious discussion and are resorting to propaganda/trolling.

Atomic theory is a theory, does that mean you don't believe in that, either? Are you willing head down to the nearest reactor and tell the manager he's working a machine that generates electricity by splitting things that don't exist?

I sense that your posting here isn't so much because you want to learn, as it is that you feel the need to confirm your belief in God by attacking a scientific theory you find threatening to your religious teachings. If that's the case, I don't blame you, but at some point I think you'll have to either reconcile science with your religion. It's here to stay.

Except, a typical "scientific atheist" will hold ALL those "theories" for UNDENIABLE FACTS.
And THAT is THE problem...

Again, not only is this as wrong as it's possible to be, it's also amazing you can't see how ironic this is coming from a religious person. Every single one of your attacks on science (taking things on faith, never budging about dogmas, etc.) do not fit science at all and apply perfectly to organized religion.

Look... it's possibly a bad analogy, but science is akin to drawing a map. If I was to say that there was a huge mountain in the middle of Manhattan, of course no one would listen to me. No maps would be updated. I would be laughed out of the room.

But why would I not be taken seriously? Because the Chief Cartographer has decreed there are no mountains in Manhattan? Because the idea of a mountain in Manhattan threatens the beliefs of NYC residents? Because an old book says that when Chinese landscapers made Manhattan, they didn't put any mountains down?

No. Because of evidence. We know there are no mountains in Manhattan. Millions live there, probably hundreds of millions have visited. Even if you've never been to the island you can go online and examine countless photos, video clips, maps and accounts from travellers and residents. We know there are no mountains in Manhattan.

Does this mean you should stop using Google Earth and every other map service and never look at a map again, because otherwise the industry is knee-deep in dogma and unable to change its mind? Or does it simply mean that sometimes, just sometimes, there is enough evidence to call something a fact?

 

[kramerfan86]

Why this outrageous standard of evidence? The fossil record isn't our evidence for evolution in the first place.

Because this outrageous standard of evidence is the only thing that gives his beliefs a leg to stand on. Im telling you, if electricity was against genesis we would hear "well unless you have a shrink ray and have literally SEEN THESE PARTICLES WITH YOUR EYES than the ideas on what makes electricity are THEORY not FACT".

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

Because this outrageous standard of evidence is the only thing that gives his beliefs a leg to stand on. Im telling you, if electricity was against genesis we would hear "well unless you have a shrink ray and have literally SEEN THESE PARTICLES WITH YOUR EYES than the ideas on what makes electricity are THEORY not FACT".

how is evolution like electricity?

 

[civ2]

I'd like to quote some thoughts of a man, who was both a highly valued (in US) engineer AND the biggest Jewish religious figure of our days: the Lubavitcher Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson.
First, a few videos about his scientific knowledge and involvement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYNVql89yb4 (starts at around 1.10)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp4xyCF1GKQ

Now, the quotes:

Spoiler :

Nature and the Miraculous

There is a thread, a chain of souls with a common mission, each one completing what the other left undone.

Seven generations back, 200 years ago, lived the first Schneerson, Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi. Schneur Zalman was a great philosopher with the unique ability to draw into the words of intellect that which others could only feel deep in the soul. So he wrote a short book -a classic now known as “The Tanya”-in which he explained how there is nothing but G-d.

He explained that every detail of existence is constantly created at every moment, each detail by a particular force of G-d invested within it. He asserted that if the power of existence would be removed, that thing would cease to exist. In fact, it would never have existed - its past would also cease, since time, too, is a creation.

Which means that everything that happens comes from Above. Which means that G-d can be found anywhere, at any time, in any thing and by anybody. Which means that splitting the Red Sea or stopping the sun in its path are minor miracles when compared to the very fact that we all continue to exist. Because every moment we are all created anew, something from nothing.

Eventually, even the students of opposing teachings accepted his views, which swiftly became mainstream thought. The ideas found their way into secular thought as well. Today, few realize where the idea of constant creation came from.

So, when the Rebbe expressed these same thoughts, and applied them to modern life, he came by them honestly. They were in his blood.

World Defined

Where G-d is hidden - there you see a world.

Higher Reality

We take the laws of nature too seriously. We think of the world as though it exists just as its Creator exists.

That is why we must have miracles. A miracle is a state of enlightenment that says, “Our reality is nothing but a glimmer of a Higher Reality. In that Higher Truth, there is no world. There is nothing else but Him.”

Not and Is

G-d is not Nature.

But Nature is G-dly.

Recognition

When G-d makes a miracle, it is so that afterwards we may look at the natural order of things and say, "I recognize this. This is not what it appears to be. This, too, is a miracle."

The Creator of Logic

G-d can do anything. He could even, as the Talmud puts it, "fit an elephant through the eye of a needle."

So, how would He do it? Would He make the elephant smaller? Or would He expand the eye of the needle?

Neither. The elephant would remain big, the eye of the needle small. And He would fit the elephant through the eye of the needle.

Illogical? True. But logic is just another of His creations. He who created logic is permitted to disregard it.

Two Lights

When the world was made, G-d was left with two lights: A light of boundless energy that encompasses all things and gives them being, but transcends them, and a penetrating light that vitalizes all things but is limited and darkened by them.

The first light is a pure expression of "there is none else but He", so from it extend miracles, acts that deny the world any significance.

The second light is an expression of His desire that there be a world, so from it extends the natural order of things, a world of elements behaving as though they are directed by their own properties.

But G-d did not want a world where there are two Powers That Be --one of Nature and one of Supernature. So He made the two lights to play in harmony, to reveal that they both shine from one Source.

How does He do it? Does He blunt the miracles so they could fit into the natural order? Or does He alter the properties of nature to compromise with the miracles?

Neither. Each element acts according to its natural properties, while miracles of the highest order occur.

Impossible? Plant a seed and watch it grow. Plant good deeds and watch with wonder the miracles that ensue.

Stereo Miracles

There are two types of miracles: Those beyond nature and those clothed within it. The water of the Nile turning into blood was beyond nature. The victory of the Maccabees over the Greek army came dressed as a natural occurence —they had to fight to win.

Both types of miracles are necessary.

If we would only see miracles beyond nature, we would know that G-d can do whatever He likes --but we might think He must break the rules to do so. We would know a G-d who is beyond nature, but not within it.

If we would see only miracles that are clothed within nature, we would know a G-d that is Master of all that happens within nature.
But we might think He is limited within it.

Now we know a G–d that is at once both beyond all things and within them. In truth, there is nothing else but Him.

The Most Wondrous

There are open miracles that break the laws of nature as though they were meaningless --miracles any fool can perceive.

Then there are miracles that take some thought to realize, that, yes, something out of the ordinary occurred here.

And then there are miracles so great, so wondrous, that no one but G-d Himself is cognizant of them. They are the miracles that occur continuously, at every moment.

Determinism

The world is not predictable. Determinism is a leftover artifact of the nineteenth century.

All we can say is that there are some loose rules by which G‑d generally plays.

Miracles Today

From a talk in 1991:

The fall of the communist dictatorships of the Eastern Bloc was a kind of miracle that has no historical precedent. Never before were so many people affected by such radical change with so little violence.

The miracles of the Gulf War were open miracles. The same scud missiles that took countless lives in Iran were impotent when they struck their target in Israel. The soldiers and officers of the Allied Forces saw inexplicable miracles in their victory.

Other miracles took some thought to realize that they were miracles, that the laws of nature were not the only thing at play here. But anyone who saw what occurred in the Gulf War saw openly that this was miraculous.

And yet people ask, “Where are the miracles today?”

The Inexplicable

To a fool, that which cannot be explained cannot exist.

The wise man knows that existence itself cannot be explained.

Nuclear Power

Even from the most horrible things we can learn great lessons. From the threat of nuclear destruction we can learn several things about how to rearrange the world for the good:

• You don't need great armies.

• It can take only one simple act.

• You don't have to understand how it works --just what button to press.

• It doesn't matter who does it, as long as he presses the right button.

• From the smallest things come the biggest changes.

• Tremendous power has always been there --it needs only be revealed.

...and since all this has only been discovered in our generation, it must be of particular relevance to us.

Momentous Missions

Take-off of one of the Apollo missions was delayed due to a single, tiny loose component. From this the Rebbe learned:

The more momentous the mission, the more crucial the details. Including the most momentous mission of all, the purpose of Creation.

Every detail of G-d’s world and of our mission upon it is essential. Nothing is without meaning. Nothing is without vital purpose.

On Computers

What is new about the computer? You walk into a room and you see familiar machines: a typewriter, a tape recorder, a television, a telephone, audio speakers, of course a calculator --but none of these are new.

Unseen, however, beneath the floors and behind the walls, are cables connecting all these machines to work together as one. There is digital technology that allows them to all speak the same language -thereby transforming them from many ordinary machines into a single powerful computer.

Now, let’s take your own life. You do business, you study, you eat, you talk --each activity seemingly irrelevant to the next. A mess of fragments.

And such, too, is the native psyche of the human being: We have minds that understand one way, hearts that feels another --and what we do has often nothing to do with either of those.

Take the technology of the computer and apply it in terms of your everyday life: Find a common meaning at which all these fragments converge, and thereby unleash their power.

Torah and the World

People think that G-d first made a world and then gave us instructions to follow, so we won't mess it up. The truth is, the instructions came first, and the world was designed as the venue to carry them out.

Therefore, to say that anything in the world could be an opposition to carrying out its Creator's will is an absurdity. There can be no opponents to the purpose of creation -- only meaningful challenges.

Absolute Values

For mankind to exist in harmony, we must listen to the voice that Noah heard after the flood.

We must accept that there is a set of absolute values set by the Creator of the world, values that we cannot play with to suit our convenience.

Values from beyond the subjective minds of men.

Beyond Humanism

People call me “old-fashioned” for my belief in an ancient and timeless teaching and for my faith in G‑d.
In truth, it is they who are old-fashioned; for they cling to an idea that failed decades ago.

The Age of Reason, of Enlightenment, of Humanism—when Knowledge and Intellect were worshiped as the Redeemers of Mankind—all this died and was buried when the most civilized and intellectual nation on earth committed the most unthinkable atrocities.

Humanity, to survive, must accept, feel, stand in awe and connect to That Which Is Above us.

True Belief

From a letter by the Rebbe:

I do not accept your assertion that you do not believe.

For if you truly had no concept of a Supernal Being Who created the world with purpose, then what is all this outrage of yours against the injustice of life?

The substance of the universe is not moral, nor are plants and animals. Why should it surprise you that whoever is bigger and more powerful swallows his fellow alive?

It is only due to an inner conviction in our hearts, shared by every human being, that there is a Judge, that there is right and there is wrong. And so, when we see a wrong, we demand an explanation: Why is this not the way it is supposed to be?

That itself is belief in G‑d.

Einstein’s G‑d

Einstein received acclaim for demonstrating that energy and matter are one. The scientist who demonstrates how all forces are one in a unified theory will receive even greater acclaim.

So, since we all agree that someone will eventually establish this, why not accept it right now, and we’ll call it G‑d?

Science & G-d

In the nineteenth century, many scientists had no use for G-d. Instead, they worshipped a tight chain of cause and effect that left no room for miracles, providence or prophecy.

But then the scientist looked into the atom and the wonder of the universe opened before him. The iron chain of cause and effect was loosened and Determinism deposed from its throne. Today, once again there is room for G-d in the minds of men.

Discoveries & Inventions

Everything was created as a means to know G-d.

Every discovery we have ever made, each of our inventions, was planted here in the six days of creation in order that we utilize it for a G-dly purpose.

Life on Mars

A young biologist was working at NASA on a project to find life on Mars. He asked the Rebbe, "Is this okay? Some religions say we shouldn't search. After all, the Bible doesn’t say anything about life on Mars."

The Rebbe replied, "Professor Green, you should look for life on Mars. And if you don't find it there, you should look elsewhere. Because for you to sit here and say that G-d didn't create life elsewhere is to put limits on G-d, and no one can do that."

Scientific Revolution

More than 1,700 years in advance, the author of the Zohar predicted a revolution of science and technology beginning in the middle of the last century. There he describes the fountains of wisdom bursting forth from the ground and flooding the earth --all in preparation for an era when the world shall be filled with wisdom and knowledge of the Oneness of its Creator.

From this we know that the true purpose of all technology and modern science is neither convenience nor power, but a means to discover G‑dliness within the physical world.

Communication Technology

Communication technologies have provided us a metaphor to comprehend how One Being can perceive all things in a single instance.

It makes you wonder how previous generations could possibly have understood such things.

E=MC2

Modern physics has brought us to a realization of the oneness of our universe, from which we may better grasp the Oneness of its Creator:

All that exists can be divided into two elements: The force, and the particle that bears that force. In other terms: quality and quantity. With a simple equation, Einstein demonstrated that even these two elements are truly one.

Science From the Top Down

The scientist’s understanding begins from the outside and attempts to work in—from the bottom up. He begins with subjective empiricism and attempts to deduce an objective model.

The wisdom of Torah begins from the inside and works its way out—from the top down. In this approach you meditate upon the Creator’s own objective model and apply it to discover the truth behind this world.

The prudent scientist will realize that he can benefit most through a combination of both approaches.

Gravity

No one has ever seen, touched or measured a particle or a wave of gravity. Furthermore, the very notion of gravity is mystifying: masses light years apart with nothing between them, affecting each other’s movements!

Yet we all accept there must be a cause behind the phenomena we observe, so we call this elusive force “gravity.”

So too, there is a cause behind existence. That Cause may be even more elusive, but the reality of its existence is at least as inescapable and empirically evident.

 

[Sonereal]

how is evolution like electricity?

The way they work are both based on "theories" because scientific theory is very different from normal theories.

Gravity

No one has ever seen, touched or measured a particle or a wave of gravity. Furthermore, the very notion of gravity is mystifying: masses light years apart with nothing between them, affecting each other’s movements!

Yet we all accept there must be a cause behind the phenomena we observe, so we call this elusive force “gravity.”

Wait, couldn't the same argument apply to evol-

I'm not even going to try.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

You can throw a cat out of a window though - so FACT.

 

[Sonereal]

You can throw a cat out of a window though - so FACT.

All that proves is that you can throw a cat out the window. The force pulling the cat to the ground could be gravity, it could be the sin in the cat's heart weighing it down to earth. After all, gravity is a theory.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

No-ones ever observed the number "1" either. So maths = THEORY.

We've also never observed a perfect circle. Geometry = CONJECTURE.

Therefore, the Flying Spaghetti Monster did it, QED.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Illogical? True. But logic is just another of His creations. He who created logic is permitted to disregard it.

Comedy gold!

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Humans created logic anyway.

 

[emzie]

I find it perplexing physicists don't face a constant barrage of creationists running into brick walls.

 

[civ2]

kramer
Even though my way of defining terms is somewhat different from the "official" one, I make my points obvious enough to get past the "inconsistency of naming".
So, "facts" are things that WORK, real time, could be checked, could be used.
"Theories" though aren't real time and/or can't be checked/observed and/or lack actual events.
Gravity can be proven by throwing a stone, electricity is already proven by me posting here.
Natural selection is proven by dog breeds, while large-scale evolution is unobservable and based PURELY on assumptions.
You assume that this is a skeleton of a Homo species, (and not a gorilla)
you assume it has a direct connection to us, (and not to chimps)
you assume it's a typical individual and not a mutation, (with totally atypical skeleton)
you assume the skeleton wasn't distorted, (though it was there for countless years)
you assume you know everything (and that's where all the trouble starts).

 

[emzie]

kramer
Even though my way of defining terms is somewhat different from the "official" one, I make my points obvious enough to get past the "inconsistency of naming".
So, "facts" are things that WORK, real time, could be checked, could be used.
"Theories" though aren't real time and/or can't be checked/observed and/or lack actual events.
Gravity can be proven by throwing a stone, electricity is already proven by me posting here.
Natural selection is proven by dog breeds, while large-scale evolution is unobservable and based PURELY on assumptions.
You assume that this is a skeleton of a Homo species, (and not a gorilla)
you assume it has a direct connection to us, (and not to chimps)
you assume it's a typical individual and not a mutation, (with totally atypical skeleton)
you assume the skeleton wasn't distorted, (though it was there for countless years)
you assume you know everything (and that's where all the trouble starts).

I think we have here a skipping record.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Gravity can be proven by throwing a stone.

Prove it then.

 

[Sonereal]

Civ2, do you accept microevolution?

Because your appendix proves that A.) There is such thing as microevolution and B.) If ID was true, you shouldn't have a useless organ.

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

You assume that this is a skeleton of a Homo species, (and not a gorilla)
you assume it has a direct connection to us, (and not to chimps)
you assume it's a typical individual and not a mutation, (with totally atypical skeleton)
you assume the skeleton wasn't distorted, (though it was there for countless years)
you assume you know everything (and that's where all the trouble starts).

you forgot one
and you assume it wasn't fabricated

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Is creationism fabricated?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Was Jesus' resurrection fabricated?

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Is mathematics (EDIT: and hence, logic) fabricated?

Spoiler :

Yes