Random Thoughts 3: A Little Bit of This, and a Little Bit of That...
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Lexicus
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Well I can't either as I'm not really familiar with any of the examples used in this thread (of the movies mentioned I'm pretty sure I've only seen the original Alien).
Pretty much nailed it.
Oh dear I do apologize, I did come late into this conversation and I'm afraid I sort of maybe over-summarized what I was reading. I felt in general a lot of the discussion was around Ripley being a man in woman shape, which is what I was disagreeing with, and I was agreeing generally she was a woman and not a man, if I'm making sense? I'm not really familiar with what "fake" women were being referred to, and I can't seem to find it, do you happen to know which examples of such female heroes she was contrasting against Ellen Ripley? I guess I was sort of just responding to what I felt was an overarching theme of this discussion here.
My major issue is I don't believe women action heroes need to fit a male defined view of "feminine", which to me is really just sexual objectification, if you know what I mean? I'd rather not see a woman hero running around in high heels and a cocktail dress, worrying about damaging her hair or breaking her nails or something, like some sort of Joss Whedon phony-feminism, you know? I really feel James Cameron really gets it, another movie I loved was True Lies, and Jamie Lee Curtis' character is a lovely example. She's obviously not the lead, but she had her own ambitions about breaking away from her stereotypical housewife existence, and she tried to take control of her own destiny, plus I always loved that bit when she tosses her shoes, lol. And Tia Carrere's character was also delightfully villainous, with how she used Arnold and she also had her own objectives, she just happened to be allied with those terrorists.
Some behaviors have changed from gender to gender over time, like high heels used to be something men wore to appear taller, and women started wearing them to appear more masculine, lol! Men used to wear makeup and such, right? But if you look at "traditional" gender traits, you'll find pretty much everything about strength and dominance assigned to men, while everything weak assigned to women, which is why I really don't agree with those definitions, you know what I mean?
Synobun
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True Lies! I completely forgot about that movie! Now I want to rewatch it...
Anyways, about there being examples, I don't think any were given. We've sort of only had Ripley to work off of for "true" femininity and then a nebulous category of fakes for the other side. I can't think of anyone who would fit into the "fake" category myself since I personally don't watch movies through a lens of deciding if the lead is male enough or female enough, or if they're genuine in being whatever subverted expectations that got assigned to them.
Your description of phony-feminism, though, made me think of that lady in Jurassic World who outruns a t-rex in high heels. She's not a hero, though. I guess? I don't really know what she's considered...
At any rate, on a personal level, I agree with you that being strong is not a male quality.
Anyways, about there being examples, I don't think any were given. We've sort of only had Ripley to work off of for "true" femininity and then a nebulous category of fakes for the other side. I can't think of anyone who would fit into the "fake" category myself since I personally don't watch movies through a lens of deciding if the lead is male enough or female enough, or if they're genuine in being whatever subverted expectations that got assigned to them.
Your description of phony-feminism, though, made me think of that lady in Jurassic World who outruns a t-rex in high heels. She's not a hero, though. I guess? I don't really know what she's considered...
At any rate, on a personal level, I agree with you that being strong is not a male quality.
Thank you kindly for all your very respectful and insightful posts, I've found it a pleasure discussing this with you.
Oh yes I love True Lies, and it's one of my baby brother's favorite movies!
I was totally thinking of Bryce Dallas-Howard's character when I wrote that, lol! As a woman who's worn heels, it's hard for me to relate, even simple things like walking down stairs can be tricky (you're supposed to remove your shoes during a fire emergency, for example). I've seen many realistic portrayals where a woman takes her heels off before needing to run or something and it's very refreshing, like remember that final scene in Crocodile Dundee? Even if you can manage walking well in them, why would you? Even if you're proficient, you're still going to be much more capable in your bare feet, but of course a woman wearing heels is "sexy" from a man's perspective, right?
I'm really not aware too much just from my own memory of examples of women who are really "men", but I'm very familiar with women heroes written for men instead of written for women, if I'm making sense? Like what I mean is, she's obviously just a sexual object, and she's on screen for male sexual fantasies instead of women's empowerment, which to me is very different from both Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor. You see this even more in video games, which can often be very toxic to women, like you wouldn't believe how many times I've tried to play a game where my character's wearing 6-inch stiletto heels (back to those again!) and some sort of leather leotard, while male characters are much more practical. Which is why my feeling is when men complain Ripley isn't "feminine", is because she doesn't have double-D boobs popping out of her barely-there shirt, you know?
Oh yes I love True Lies, and it's one of my baby brother's favorite movies!
I was totally thinking of Bryce Dallas-Howard's character when I wrote that, lol! As a woman who's worn heels, it's hard for me to relate, even simple things like walking down stairs can be tricky (you're supposed to remove your shoes during a fire emergency, for example). I've seen many realistic portrayals where a woman takes her heels off before needing to run or something and it's very refreshing, like remember that final scene in Crocodile Dundee? Even if you can manage walking well in them, why would you? Even if you're proficient, you're still going to be much more capable in your bare feet, but of course a woman wearing heels is "sexy" from a man's perspective, right?
I'm really not aware too much just from my own memory of examples of women who are really "men", but I'm very familiar with women heroes written for men instead of written for women, if I'm making sense? Like what I mean is, she's obviously just a sexual object, and she's on screen for male sexual fantasies instead of women's empowerment, which to me is very different from both Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor. You see this even more in video games, which can often be very toxic to women, like you wouldn't believe how many times I've tried to play a game where my character's wearing 6-inch stiletto heels (back to those again!) and some sort of leather leotard, while male characters are much more practical. Which is why my feeling is when men complain Ripley isn't "feminine", is because she doesn't have double-D boobs popping out of her barely-there shirt, you know?
EgonSpengler
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Yeah, to my memory, that character in Jurassic World got nothing but mockery for the heels. 
I think I've gotten fairly lucky in terms of my exposure to women in action-adventure roles over the years. Wonder Woman. Buck Rogers and the original Battlestar Galactica were shows I watched as a little boy, and I watched Cagney & Lacey with my mom (back then, with no DVR and only 1 screen in the house, if a parent decided is was their turn to watch something, you either watched it too or played with your toys). I wonder what a 21st-century, feminist critique of Wonder Woman, Princess Leia, or Margot Kidder's Lois Lane would be? I'm almost sure all three of them would fail the Bechdel Test. I think they may have been the only women in those stories - Smurfette Syndrome. Linda Hamilton in the original The Terminator was your classic woman-in-distress, but I'd feel like you're not getting the character's complete arc if you don't watch Terminator 2.
I think I've gotten fairly lucky in terms of my exposure to women in action-adventure roles over the years. Wonder Woman. Buck Rogers and the original Battlestar Galactica were shows I watched as a little boy, and I watched Cagney & Lacey with my mom (back then, with no DVR and only 1 screen in the house, if a parent decided is was their turn to watch something, you either watched it too or played with your toys). I wonder what a 21st-century, feminist critique of Wonder Woman, Princess Leia, or Margot Kidder's Lois Lane would be? I'm almost sure all three of them would fail the Bechdel Test. I think they may have been the only women in those stories - Smurfette Syndrome. Linda Hamilton in the original The Terminator was your classic woman-in-distress, but I'd feel like you're not getting the character's complete arc if you don't watch Terminator 2.
How does Lara Croft fit into all this?
Oh that's so funny, I got into watching Star Trek exactly the same way, because we only had one television and it's what my father chose to watch!
I have my opinions on Princess Leia at least, and in my mind she's a wonderful feminist character. She obviously isn't going to pass the Bechdel Test, mostly because there aren't any other women in Star Wars really! And that's not perfect anyway, you can see many very sexist movies just sort of throwing in a scene to satisfy that, and that doesn't really mean anything. But she certainly passes the Mako Mori test, since she has agency and independence. She's the leader of the Rebellion, and she's driving the story. She's powerful and brave, she's not afraid to talk down to men like Darth Vader and Governor Tarkin, and she endures physical and psychological torture without breaking. She's smart enough to know they're being tricked and allowed to escape, and everything is her plan basically, right? Star Wars really at its core is a metaphor for women's liberation from the patriarchy (that's why the Empire is originally all white men, lol), and in my mind at least Princess Leia has always been a wonderfully strong character.
I have my opinions on Princess Leia at least, and in my mind she's a wonderful feminist character. She obviously isn't going to pass the Bechdel Test, mostly because there aren't any other women in Star Wars really! And that's not perfect anyway, you can see many very sexist movies just sort of throwing in a scene to satisfy that, and that doesn't really mean anything. But she certainly passes the Mako Mori test, since she has agency and independence. She's the leader of the Rebellion, and she's driving the story. She's powerful and brave, she's not afraid to talk down to men like Darth Vader and Governor Tarkin, and she endures physical and psychological torture without breaking. She's smart enough to know they're being tricked and allowed to escape, and everything is her plan basically, right? Star Wars really at its core is a metaphor for women's liberation from the patriarchy (that's why the Empire is originally all white men, lol), and in my mind at least Princess Leia has always been a wonderfully strong character.
Farm Boy
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It was also this weird love story of growth with what is old is young and what is young is old thing going on.
Sarah Connor grew stronger as Kyle Reese spent himself emotionally and physically on her against a foe that was clearly beyond his scope. As she had made him stronger in the first place. It's quite touching, and possibly my favorite love story. Better movie than Judgement Day, for all the sacrilege in that statement.
I also prefer Terminator over Terminator 2, I always feel like a pariah for holding that opinion, lol. I feel like you really explained that well @Farm Boy, she starts off weak but she grows stronger, and she deals with some real horror and ultimately she's the one who destroys the machine after Kyle dies, and then she embraces her mission.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Dredd doesn't get enough liberal cudos in the whole "feminist-ish action film" discourse. The film is really Anderson's story, she's the one who gets an actual character arc where Dredd just gets to do a bunch of heroic murders, but it also shows its commitment to taking female characters seriously with a non-sexualised female antagonist. Plus, the Chief Judge is also female, and although she only gets one scene, she's the only character that Dredd treats with any sort of deference.
Anderson and Ma-Ma are also pretty strong examples of characters occupying traditional male roles, both narratively and in-universe, without coming across as male characters played by female actors. Ma-Ma is probably the best female villain in any comic book adaptation to date, even admitting that's not a very crowded playing field.
Anderson and Ma-Ma are also pretty strong examples of characters occupying traditional male roles, both narratively and in-universe, without coming across as male characters played by female actors. Ma-Ma is probably the best female villain in any comic book adaptation to date, even admitting that's not a very crowded playing field.
brennan
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Ellen Ripley, although apparently she was originally written to be a man, does not display stereotypical male qualities at all in Alien. She is a working class person whose main characteristic in Alien (and arguably in Aliens and definitely in Alien 3) is that she doesn't lose her head under pressure and she frequently demonstrates better judgement than people around her. What she shows, if anything, is that good characters, like most people, are not caricatures, but believable people placed in interesting situations.
A lot of Sigourney Weaver's characters have a similar everyman-ish quality. So do Jennifer Lawrence's. I think partly this is down to the fact that they kinda look normal rather than like staggeringly beautiful hollywood starlets and also they pick roles that require them to do things other than look good. Remember Frances McDormand in Fargo? Could have been played by a man and the character shone because of it. Chief Gunderson was just ordinary and that's why she was great. It is likely loads of good male characters out there could have been played by women, but Hollywood has a weird obsession with starlets and ignores a lot of older women.
Oh and Terminator is clearly better than Judgement Day.
Karl Urban nailed Dredd, but Olivia Thirlby made me want a Judge Anderson Movie, not a Dredd sequel, "The crime isss life.. the sentence isss death...."
A lot of Sigourney Weaver's characters have a similar everyman-ish quality. So do Jennifer Lawrence's. I think partly this is down to the fact that they kinda look normal rather than like staggeringly beautiful hollywood starlets and also they pick roles that require them to do things other than look good. Remember Frances McDormand in Fargo? Could have been played by a man and the character shone because of it. Chief Gunderson was just ordinary and that's why she was great. It is likely loads of good male characters out there could have been played by women, but Hollywood has a weird obsession with starlets and ignores a lot of older women.
Oh and Terminator is clearly better than Judgement Day.
Karl Urban nailed Dredd, but Olivia Thirlby made me want a Judge Anderson Movie, not a Dredd sequel, "The crime isss life.. the sentence isss death...."
Timsup2nothin
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So, if we go with the idea that a man is masculine by virtue of being a man, comfortable in his being a man and not concerned with "proving it" through his actions, and similar for women and femininity, that leaves a question. What if said woman chooses the "traditional, male defined as sexy" paradigm? As it is her choice, as long as she is a woman and comfortable as such that would make the "fake feminine" real, in her case. I think we need to be cautious in identifying behaviors as "fake" or imposed if we are really going to create space for actual freedom of choice.
EgonSpengler
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Some of the pushback against feminism comes from the misunderstanding that feminism proposes or demands a total rejection of traditional femininity and traditional masculinity. Other misreadings of feminism would be that it claims, "anything that appeals to straight men oppresses women", or "men's fantasies and women's empowerment are mutually-exclusive." If we lived in a truly feminist society, no one would think that a woman who chooses traditionally-feminine characteristics, appearance, career or lifestyle is either a 'proper' woman or a victim of the patriarchy.
brennan
Argumentative Brit
Those aren't 'misreadings' of feminism. The m.o. of modern feminism when it analyses absolutely anything is to find a way to declare it to be sexist, possibly racist, oppressive and something to do with the Patriarchy. It's like talking to a creationist. Everything has to fit into their worldview.
Synobun
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^ lol
It's an interesting question, Tim. My initial reaction was to point to "Third Wave" feminism where women desperately try to police women who use their sexuality. But then I thought about fifty years ago when some women did the same to women who were happy being housewives. There'll always be a minority who think any adhering to the previous standard will be heretical. But I think the majority would see it as fine, assuming it is their actual choice and not something they were simply gaslit into believing.
It's an interesting question, Tim. My initial reaction was to point to "Third Wave" feminism where women desperately try to police women who use their sexuality. But then I thought about fifty years ago when some women did the same to women who were happy being housewives. There'll always be a minority who think any adhering to the previous standard will be heretical. But I think the majority would see it as fine, assuming it is their actual choice and not something they were simply gaslit into believing.
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