Random Thoughts 3: A Little Bit of This, and a Little Bit of That...

[Takhisis]

What are you answering to, cardgame? I'm certainly not commenting on that because I don't know enough about the subject.

I'm still blanking on this one. Are we working from the assumption that a joke which refers to something is necessarily making a joke of that thing? Because, that's a bad assumption.

Look, don't sweat it and don't take it personally. You made a comment, I think it in bad taste and I'm explaining why it is so. I don't want to derail the thread, even if it is the random thoughts thread.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

@cardgame
The topic was reclaiming a transphobic word for anime. Not everyone considers the word trap tansphobic in all situations but Riyika has a problem with anyone finding it transphobic in all situations. Then she cites anime of all things as the root of her intollerant opinion which is just stupid pot-stirring.

@Takhisis didn't find @Traitorfish's joke about it funny but that's a whole sidebar

 

[Takhisis]

Oh, back to that, well, I think I'll have to disagree with Ryika.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

That's her premise, that you cannot ever be offended by the word trap.

Ever.

Because anime.

 

[cardgame]

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here, that's not how I interpreted Ryika's post at all.

Additionally, correct me if I'm wrong, but anime is the source of "trap" so I'm confused why you're being so belligerent to anime in this context.

 

[Takhisis]

OK… then… explain?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here, that's not how I interpreted Ryika's post at all.

Well then you interpreted it wrong my friend. Have you ever noticed that dropping little bombs like that is her schtick?

It's what she does.

Now let me tell you about how Blue Origin just got the contract to supply ULA's new Vulcan rocket with dual MethaLox engines...

 

[Takhisis]

@Takhisis didn't find @Traitorfish's joke about it funny but that's a whole sidebar

I at least don't find it any use to go on further than I've said, not least because I don't feel any animosity towards TF himself.

 

[Ryika]

I mean, your certainty as to what a word means, does not make that usage any less repugnant. Was that ever the issue at stake?

I don't understand this post. If you call a trans individual a trap, then that's a negative thing that a person should be called out for. It's clearly a derogatory use of the word against an individual. (At least if you don't know them of course. If it's a joke that's understood between friends, fine with me.) The same is true if you talk about trans individuals by using that word: "Traps should have to disclose their physical sex before going on a date." - clearly a slur against trans individuals here, whatever you think about the argument.

If we talk about the anime use of the word, it's a.) not referring to trans individuals, and b.) not a term that has a negative connotation. It's referring to a type of anime that has quite a fandom and is beloved by many people.

So if two communities use the same word to describe different things and then extremists from one community go into the other community and tell them that they cannot use the word because in their community it's a swear against a group of people, then that's a completely different story. You would not go to a pest controller and tell them that they have to find a new word to use instead of "(rat) trap", I don't see how it's different just because the usages of the word are somewhat similar.

/edit: Oh wow, I should have read the rest of the thread first. You guys are ridiculous. The idiotic conclusions you've come to have nothing to do with what I said at all.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

It's exactly what I'd expect from the explicitly Feminist Swedish government though, it's basically Canada on Steroids.

Why should Justin Trudeau's stance on feminism and government be a problem for you?

I can't provide any insight into German and Arabic, but I've found there's a huge difference between learning a language by immersion (e.g. being in that country) and learning a language from afar, in a classroom. I spent 4 years trying to learn French in college, in a classroom, from American instructors with American accents, and when I arrived in France I may as well have been deaf. I could say a handful of things (albeit with my American accent), but when a French person said anything to me - even things that I knew I'd studied and practiced - I really struggled to understand them.

Watch French TV. Our basic cable packages include several, even though few people in this region of the country watch them.

 

[cardgame]

Well then you interpreted it wrong my friend. Have you ever noticed that dropping little bombs like that is her schtick?

It's what she does.

I haven't had enough interactions to color my glasses when viewing her posts, I guess.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I don't understand this post. If you call a trans individual a trap, then that's a negative thing that a person should be called out for. It's clearly a derogatory use of the word against an individual. (At least if you don't know them of course. If it's a joke that's understood between friends, fine with me.) The same is true if you talk about trans individuals by using that word: "Traps should have to disclose their physical sex before going on a date." - clearly a slur against trans individuals here, whatever you think about the argument.

If we talk about the anime use of the word, it's a.) not referring to trans individuals, and b.) not a term that has a negative connotation. It's referring to a type of anime that has quite a fandom and is beloved by many people.

So if two communities use the same word to describe different things and then extremists from one community go into the other community and tell them that they cannot use the word because in their community it's a swear against a group of people, then that's a completely different story. You would not go to a pest controller and tell them that they have to find a new word to use instead of "(rat) trap", I don't see how it's different just because the usages of the word are somewhat similar.

/edit: Oh wow, I should have read the rest of the thread first. You guys are ridiculous. The idiotic conclusions you've come to have nothing to do with what I said at all.

So your new hot take is "Don't use the word trap to hurt people but trap shouldn't ever hurt people because anime"

Pretty much what you said before

 

[Synobun]

I'm certainly one to dismiss Ryika at every possible turn for sport, but that isn't what they're saying.

I don't know enough about the term to really have a solid opinion. Personally I don't notice much of a distinction between the two interpretations because the anime approach is ultimately the issue behind the trans approach. The people who use the term seriously or as a judgment against others see trans people the same as they see the "traps" in anime. It's easy to blur the lines as an outsider looking in because you see people calling trans people traps for trying to pass as the opposite binary gender and then you see anime fans cooing over "traps" in their anime shows which seem to physically resemble the former group.

But Ryika isn't making the "it's fine all the time" argument, as easy as that would make things. They are saying that people from the anti-"trans people are traps" camp shouldn't be spreading that in an anime scene that uses the word 'trap' because the anti-"trans people are traps" group lacks situational awareness. Their message is pointless to be shared in a group that doesn't display the behaviour they're rallying against.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I see the distinction but it is without difference. The net effect is still, 'you can't be offended by the word trap because anime'. That's what the argument boils down to at the root. And I'm sorry I am not going to give her the benefit of the doubt here given this rabble-rousing is straight from her playbook.

I mean sure, it's neat or whatever that she's claimed 'you can't be offended by the word trap in anime context because anime' but again it's the same frakking thing. She might as well be arguing you can't be offended by the n-word in rap context because rap. There are much broader implications to whole line of argument she is invoking. And given past behavior, those implications are intentional.

 

[Broken_Erika]

My thoughts on this.

Spoiler :

[/quote]

 

[Synobun]

Doing some reading up on the upcoming election here.

"Buday, who has run for mayor in several previous Vancouver elections, describes himself as a “philosophical libertarian” who supports less government and fewer taxes. “A nice goal is anarchy but government is a giant time bomb, and clipping the wrong wire can cause things to blow up, we need people who can clip the right wires an disassemble the time bomb so as to not cause a catastrophe,” Buday says on his website bio."

He's got my vote. That's the kind of man I want in charge of the city.

 

[Ryika]

I see the distinction but it is without difference. The net effect is still, 'you can't be offended by the word trap because anime'. That's what the argument boils down to at the root. And I'm sorry I am not going to give her the benefit of the doubt here given this rabble-rousing is straight from her playbook.

I literally gave two examples in my last post, of situations where it's perfectly reasonable to get offended by the use of the word, have you lost the ability to read?

I mean sure, it's neat or whatever that she's claimed 'you can't be offended by the word trap in anime context because anime' but again it's the same frakking thing. She might as well be arguing you can't be offended by the n-word in rap context because rap. There are much broader implications to whole line of argument she is invoking. And given past behavior, those implications are intentional.

It's interesting to see my point be so misinterpreted. Would be very interesting to find out whether it's the emotional reaction to my name that caused this, or whether it's the argument itself, but we'll probably not find out.

Your rap comparison is nonsense, because the n-word is always a pejorative against black people, there is no context in which the word is used differently. There is, when it comes to the word trap, as I explained above.

But to stick with your rap comparison and make it as close to my initial argument as possible: It would be similar, if there were activists who went into the rap community and told them that black gangster rappers could not use the n-word to refer to each other because it offends black people who are not part of the rap scene.

Not quite the same thing as my argment as I said, but still. This whole thing about "Ryika is saying that you shouldn't ever be offended by the word!" is complete nonsense, I said nothing that comes even close to that.

Get over your emotional reaction and read my actual posts.

 

[Traitorfish]

I don't understand this post. If you call a trans individual a trap, then that's a negative thing that a person should be called out for. It's clearly a derogatory use of the word against an individual. (At least if you don't know them of course. If it's a joke that's understood between friends, fine with me.) The same is true if you talk about trans individuals by using that word: "Traps should have to disclose their physical sex before going on a date." - clearly a slur against trans individuals here, whatever you think about the argument.

If we talk about the anime use of the word, it's a.) not referring to trans individuals, and b.) not a term that has a negative connotation. It's referring to a type of anime that has quite a fandom and is beloved by many people.

So if two communities use the same word to describe different things and then extremists from one community go into the other community and tell them that they cannot use the word because in their community it's a swear against a group of people, then that's a completely different story. You would not go to a pest controller and tell them that they have to find a new word to use instead of "(rat) trap", I don't see how it's different just because the usages of the word are somewhat similar.

But we're not talking about two isolated subcultures that have stumbled into using the same series of letters to mean different, subculture-specific pieces of jargon. The context in which "trap" means this one, specific weeb thing exists within the world in which it's a transphobic offensive slur. The explicitly transphobic use is not an alternative jargon, it is the conventional usage; the usage within anime fandom is a specific application of that usage.

It's not really enough to point out that anime "traps" are mostly cis-gendered cross-dressers, because as a general rule, transphobes reject the claim of trans people to identify otherwise than their birth-assigned gender, and therefore categorise trans people as, essentially, cross-dressers. The difference, from the transphobe's perspective, is whether the "trap" understands that they are a cross-dresser, or whether they are invested in what the transphobe would see as the "delusion" of a trans identity. The usage is functional identical from the transphobe's perspective, whatever caveats the anime fan might add about their own rejection of non-transphobia, so we're not on stable ground demanding that trans people accepting these distinctions. It's not clear that we can expect trans people to recognise this supposed nuance when people who hate trans people sure as hell won't.

I'm prepared to back up from my original statement and concede that the use in anime fandom may not be "repugnant", insofar as it isn't meant with any inherent malice. But I don't think that a term which would otherwise be understood as an offensive slur becomes acceptable because a particular subculture has adopted it as jargon. Something does not need to be wicked for it to be a mistake; something does not need to be malicious for you to stop doing it.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Doing some reading up on the upcoming election here.

"Buday, who has run for mayor in several previous Vancouver elections, describes himself as a “philosophical libertarian” who supports less government and fewer taxes. “A nice goal is anarchy but government is a giant time bomb, and clipping the wrong wire can cause things to blow up, we need people who can clip the right wires an disassemble the time bomb so as to not cause a catastrophe,” Buday says on his website bio."

He's got my vote. That's the kind of man I want in charge of the city.

I'm thinking he might be better suited for shooting into space with a nuke and landing him on the Armageddon asteroid.

 

[Synobun]

I'm thinking he might be better suited for shooting into space with a nuke and landing him on the Armageddon asteroid.

There are 158 candidates that are being considered for 27 seats in this election. 21 candidates for mayor.

Most are either deranged or right wing. I'm not looking forward to this. There's one candidate whose image is her holding a sign saying "vote for an angl".

Edit: Her bio:

"Biography
I've lived in Vancouver for 17 years, I'm loving, caring and helpful. People look at me as inspiring, helpful and a hero. Some people come up to me and thank me for saving their lives. I like when people are happy, and Vancouver should be more entertaining and more sporty. I love to give people my warmth. Sponsor me."