random thoughts

[Thonnas]

from my notes

hill giants: cant enter jungle(or at least should avoid them, like civilizations)

treetop defense is good for offense (maybe too good)

treants should get a small city bombardment (5%?)

giant slayer promotion: automatic for a unit that defeats a giant (I think ffh1 had this; though it may loose its usefulness quite quickly, it would be aweful nice to get something for loosing 4-5 warriors)

mud golem -> 1 str, -50% str

phoenix: permanent summon, only castable in city ruins, destroys the ruins.

giant spiders suck (I wrote it down, it has to be important )

more: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4375294&postcount=13

 

[Nikis-Knight]

giant spiders suck (I wrote it down, it has to be important )

Do you mean with or against? Don't use them as defenders, but as scouts or to pick off enemy stragglers. As for against, they don't roam much, so just remember where they were.

mud golem -> 1 str, -50% str

AI has issues protecting or using their workers if they have any str. Maybe someday this will change.

 

[Kael]

from my notes

hill giants: cant enter jungle(or at least should avoid them, like civilizations)

I kinda like them wandering around in the jungels. Whose to say a giant cant go anywhere. I was thinking about blocking chariots, catapults and such from being able to enter jungles and forests.

treetop defense is good for offense (maybe too good)

Yeah, its intended.

treants should get a small city bombardment (5%?)

I blame tolkien for this.

giant slayer promotion: automatic for a unit that defeats a giant (I think ffh1 had this; though it may loose its usefulness quite quickly, it would be aweful nice to get something for loosing 4-5 warriors)

There is only 1 giant in the game so it didnt make much sense to carry the promotion (or the unitcombat that the old promotion used to be based on).

mud golem -> 1 str, -50% str

The ai is a bit daft at using units that can both fight and perform as workers. It was origionally the plan that mud golems would be weak fighters, but the ai was so bad with them I had to take it away.

phoenix: permanent summon, only castable in city ruins, destroys the ruins.

Hmm... thats an interesting concept. I like the idea of the phoenix spell doing something with city ruins. But its not enough to just clean them up. We need more. Maybe we could make it into a new city. Anyone got any other ideas of what to do with a city ruins when the phoenix spell is cast on it?

giant spiders suck (I wrote it down, it has to be important )

I know, i love them, i blame abman.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I kinda like them wandering around in the jungels. Whose to say a giant cant go anywhere. I was thinking about blocking chariots, catapults and such from being able to enter jungles and forests.

Whoa... that means that no one would be able to use seige against FoL cities... I'd keep it to just not entering jungles.

Hmm... thats an interesting concept. I like the idea of the phoenix spell doing something with city ruins. But its not enough to just clean them up. We need more. Maybe we could make it into a new city. Anyone got any other ideas of what to do with a city ruins when the phoenix spell is cast on it?

Only castable on a city, destroys it but gives an immortal phoenix unit. Too strong to give out as a spell though, I'd love to see a phoenix model from the art guys.
Otherwise, cast on city ruins, lose the priest, create a city with a special building that does... something good. Free immortal promotion to the next unit built? 10% chance to convert attackers?

 

[Civkid1991]

Whoa... that means that no one would be able to use seige against FoL cities... I'd keep it to just not entering jungles.

What about not entering jungles unless theres a road on that tile... or maybe if it has commando promotion then it could use the roads to get through jungles, forests, etc.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

oh, forgot about roads... but seige can't get commando, so...

 

[Civkid1991]

... but seige can't get commando...

o reallly.. never noticed. I hardly ever build them (hill giants are good enough for the job )

 

[Azragaul]

What about some kind of nest? The Pheonix has a promotion similar to immortal but returns to the nest. In addition it could give you fire and spirit mana? So you cast the spell on a city ruin, turns into a pheonix nest, give you a couple man type and a place for the Pheonix to go when it dies.

 

[YohanLeafheart]

What about some kind of nest? The Pheonix has a promotion similar to immortal but returns to the nest. In addition it could give you fire and spirit mana? So you cast the spell on a city ruin, turns into a pheonix nest, give you a couple man type and a place for the Pheonix to go when it dies.

Hmm, what about instead of a nest, if the phoenix dies it becomes an egg again, on the stack from where it attacked. The first unit to attack there, or the strongest of yours if that title is already yours will carry the egg.

A new phoenix would rise after X turns, and be for the civ that had the egg on that turn, the egg would be transfered to the victorious unit in the case the current owner loses a battle.

 

[vorshlumpf]

Ooo, that's a sweet idea!

I really like the idea of units carrying their spoils, and can't wait for items to be implemented.

- Niilo

 

[Civkid1991]

Hmm, what about instead of a nest, if the phoenix dies it becomes an egg again, on the stack from where it attacked. The first unit to attack there, or the strongest of yours if that title is already yours will carry the egg.

A new phoenix would rise after X turns, and be for the civ that had the egg on that turn, the egg would be transfered to the victorious unit in the case the current owner loses a battle.

To have the nest idea and yours how about having the phoenix come back only when you return to the nest with the egg. Only then will the new phoenix rise and searve your nation once again.

 

[QES]

Whoa... that means that no one would be able to use seige against FoL cities... I'd keep it to just not entering jungles.


Only castable on a city, destroys it but gives an immortal phoenix unit. Too strong to give out as a spell though, I'd love to see a phoenix model from the art guys.
Otherwise, cast on city ruins, lose the priest, create a city with a special building that does... something good. Free immortal promotion to the next unit built? 10% chance to convert attackers?

How about this, Cast "phoenix" on a ruins tile, and the tile gains a "phoenix next" resource, Provides a "phoenix feather" - required for Immortal units. (OR provides +4 exp to all adepts.)

OR

Creates permanent summon that is constantly losing health, but has obscene str. Like 20 str, but looses 10% of current health per turn. Unable to be healed, kills the caster.

OR

Creates one Powerful Phoenix unit (non-summon). Destroys "ruins" feature. Phoenix unit has immortality promotion.

OR

Creates one unpowerful Phoneix Familar, This unit (Phoenix familiar) may grant the "immortality" promotion to one unit it "bonds" with. Target unit may "Unbond" and therefore release the familiar. If unit is killed (with immortality promotion) it returns without the promotion and without the ability to "Unbond" with the familiar (the Phoenix is gone).

-Qes

 

[Thonnas]

I kinda like them wandering around in the jungels. Whose to say a giant cant go anywhere. I was thinking about blocking chariots, catapults and such from being able to enter jungles and forests.

I just kind of imagine a jungle being to a giant somewhat like a briar patch would be for a human. Not exactly impassable, but not something one would "wonder around" in.

I blame tolkien for this.

actually, its more of a "If hillgiants can, why can't the Treants?"
plus it could potentially appease the elf lovers with some for of seige weapon

There is only 1 giant in the game so it didnt make much sense to carry the promotion (or the unitcombat that the old promotion used to be based on).

Its just so unfullfilling to expend the resources to defete a hill giant. At least the animals can be captured eventually.

[quite]The ai is a bit daft at using units that can both fight and perform as workers. It was origionally the plan that mud golems would be weak fighters, but the ai was so bad with them I had to take it away.[/quote]
Such a shame. The smarter AI gets the dumber it seems when it has trouble with things like these.

Hmm... thats an interesting concept. I like the idea of the phoenix spell doing something with city ruins. But its not enough to just clean them up. We need more. Maybe we could make it into a new city. Anyone got any other ideas of what to do with a city ruins when the phoenix spell is cast on it?

Making a new city could be interesting.

Do you mean with or against? Don't use them as defenders, but as scouts or to pick off enemy stragglers. As for against, they don't roam much, so just remember where they were.

I mean against. They're viciously wicked. As Kael implied, they're great for game play. Just a the right amount of frustrating. They are somewhat usefull to keep around if captured.

Otherwise, cast on city ruins, lose the priest, create a city with a special building that does... something good. Free immortal promotion to the next unit built? 10% chance to convert attackers?

Loosing the caster would be a good trade. I think summoning a phoenix would be enough of a perk that the city wouldn't need anytihng extra.

OK then, I have more random thoughts, this time. . .
From the back of an envelope:

Goblin combat - kind of long (It seems that the goblin combat animation it somewhat annoyingly long, even when its a no contest situation)

Svartalfar - elven promotion (I assume this is something that will come along as the civ is implemented, but its on the back of the envelope, so. . . )

vampire - channeling II (I think I noticed that normal vampires get this, but losha doesn't but I don't know where I was going with that info. I should probably be more detailed with my notes.)

sphener - law I or II (having only the life promotions makes sphener seem like like kind of a dunse of an angel, and he gets summoning promotion, but has nothing to summon. spirit II would help with peace time usefulnes.)

mercantilism = meh [+TR yield] (I think loosing foreign trade routes potentially kills any gains one might get from this, like additional merchants[not that there arent plenty of buildings that enable them as it is, anyways]. Maybe increased trade route yields could make this better.)

pacifism - support cost ruins it [mil too imp.] (A strong, and diverse military is so vital in this mod that pacifisms +1:coin: per military unit seems too heavy a burden for the bonus it provides. Maybe this could be restricted to away/enemy territory support costs or soemthing like that. )

militray discipline - increase mil-unit production[25?] (Im at a blank for what it provides now off the top of my head, but I guess I want to suggest that it provide a 25% boost to military production.)

spell[or ablity{hero?}] - cripple - reduces strength until in city or healed (I noticed that there are a lot of buffs, but the only debuffs seem to be disease type things. Maybe some second tier sorcerer or hero could be able to dish out debuffs to enemy units, maybe even throw in +1 terrain movement costs to hinder a retreat.)

water mana node - provide fresh water (Im not sure if there is an effect associated with creation of a water mana node like there is with fire and entropy, but maybe it could be set up to provide fresh water for irrigation or a city next to it. {This seems like it has to have been sugested already, but I dont know.})

floodplains - chance to destroy improvement (this is probably a bit too much on the work/reward scale, but it seems like there should be some risk involved in loading a bunch of flood plains up with villages.)

law bringer - weak (for being limited on what it can attack, the lawbringer seems a bit weak. {the descriptions says its stong. . . } Maybe its just that sand lions are stronger that makes them seem weak.)

the end

 

[Kael]

I just kind of imagine a jungle being to a giant somewhat like a briar patch would be for a human. Not exactly impassable, but not something one would "wonder around" in.

actually, its more of a "If hillgiants can, why can't the Treants?"
plus it could potentially appease the elf lovers with some for of seige weapon

The elves will have to do without siege. If they are underpowered (and all my tests still show they are amoung the most powerful civs) we would increase them in other areas, not give them a way around their inherent weakeness.

Its just so unfullfilling to expend the resources to defete a hill giant. At least the animals can be captured eventually.

Such a shame. The smarter AI gets the dumber it seems when it has trouble with things like these.

Yeap, all things that can be "fixed" but I hate to spend AI programming time so that i can make combat workers, there are so many things Id rather have (like ai mages that improve their tiles).

Making a new city could be interesting.

I mean against. They're viciously wicked. As Kael implied, they're great for game play. Just a the right amount of frustrating. They are somewhat usefull to keep around if captured.

Loosing the caster would be a good trade. I think summoning a phoenix would be enough of a perk that the city wouldn't need anytihng extra.

OK then, I have more random thoughts, this time. . .
From the back of an envelope:

Goblin combat - kind of long (It seems that the goblin combat animation it somewhat annoyingly long, even when its a no contest situation)

Svartalfar - elven promotion (I assume this is something that will come along as the civ is implemented, but its on the back of the envelope, so. . . )

There is only 1 true svartalfar unit in right now (the horseman) and he is correctly marked as an elf. As more units are added they will be made elven as well.

vampire - channeling II (I think I noticed that normal vampires get this, but losha doesn't but I don't know where I was going with that info. I should probably be more detailed with my notes.)

Hmm.. I dont know why she doesnt have the base vampire ability to learn a few spells. I'll change it.

sphener - law I or II (having only the life promotions makes sphener seem like like kind of a dunse of an angel, and he gets summoning promotion, but has nothing to summon. spirit II would help with peace time usefulnes.)

Life summons are coming in 0.15.

mercantilism = meh [+TR yield] (I think loosing foreign trade routes potentially kills any gains one might get from this, like additional merchants[not that there arent plenty of buildings that enable them as it is, anyways]. Maybe increased trade route yields could make this better.)

pacifism - support cost ruins it [mil too imp.] (A strong, and diverse military is so vital in this mod that pacifisms +1:coin: per military unit seems too heavy a burden for the bonus it provides. Maybe this could be restricted to away/enemy territory support costs or soemthing like that. )

I disagree with this. Although military is a very viable option peaceful means work as well. I wouldn't want to make the proposed change because it would actually make warmongering more benifical (since you could use this civic effectivly with it).

militray discipline - increase mil-unit production[25?] (Im at a blank for what it provides now off the top of my head, but I guess I want to suggest that it provide a 25% boost to military production.)

spell[or ablity{hero?}] - cripple - reduces strength until in city or healed (I noticed that there are a lot of buffs, but the only debuffs seem to be disease type things. Maybe some second tier sorcerer or hero could be able to dish out debuffs to enemy units, maybe even throw in +1 terrain movement costs to hinder a retreat.)

Yeah, we dont have many debuffs because the AI doesn't know how to use targeted spells yet. So debuffs are a human advantage. When the ai targets intellegently we will add more.

water mana node - provide fresh water (Im not sure if there is an effect associated with creation of a water mana node like there is with fire and entropy, but maybe it could be set up to provide fresh water for irrigation or a city next to it. {This seems like it has to have been sugested already, but I dont know.})

Yeah I want it to source a river, but i havent coded it yet.

 

[tyrantpimp]

Not trying to hijack the thread but the talk of the phoenix spell cast on ruins is an exciting idea. I started toying with the idea of a high level liche being able to create a necropolis, but i thought it was kinda wacky. However if say all three liches had to combine powers to create the necropoplis on the ruins of a city using spells similar to your proposal for phoenix, it could be interesting

The necropolis could randomly spawn undead units gradually growing over time. Perhaps if it grows to powerful it might go barbarian. Lots of fun to be had with that.

Anyway, thats my idea.

 

[AlazkanAssassin]

I may have a little too much Tolkien in me but what if the Treants had a bombard-like effect when they attack?

Treants arn't so much into the lobbing stones great distances as the giants are, but more into destroying anything they can reach, which would clearly require getting close enough to be killed. Not much damage, just like 5%
and only apply it after(and if) the treant wins the battle.

That would make taking smaller/weakly defended citys easyer because if the treants wins once it will be easyer for sucessive treants and other units.
But larger, well defended citys would remain outside the abilities of this method as the treants would rarely win with the defense bonus still intact.

 

[Sureshot]

i want treants to get collateral damage to make them more effective against enemy intruders stacks of units. bombard wouldn't really come into effect until the late game (can't summon treants that last longer than a turn until Commune with Nature).

 

[Kael]

Not trying to hijack the thread but the talk of the phoenix spell cast on ruins is an exciting idea. I started toying with the idea of a high level liche being able to create a necropolis, but i thought it was kinda wacky. However if say all three liches had to combine powers to create the necropoplis on the ruins of a city using spells similar to your proposal for phoenix, it could be interesting

The necropolis could randomly spawn undead units gradually growing over time. Perhaps if it grows to powerful it might go barbarian. Lots of fun to be had with that.

Anyway, thats my idea.

Yeah, we have been talking about resources that are consumed by spells. Ruins seem perfect for that. I was thinking about a spell that converts a city ruins into a death node and I like your necropolis idea too.

 

[QES]

i want treants to get collateral damage to make them more effective against enemy intruders stacks of units. bombard wouldn't really come into effect until the late game (can't summon treants that last longer than a turn until Commune with Nature).

You wanna have your leafy ancients and eat them too, i know i know. But then if tree ents can bombard enemy areas, should perhaps they NOT be allowed to take cities? In this I mean......Tree ents are creatures that live in the forests, not ever cities. Should it be programed that if ever a tree ent conquers a city the city is immediately Razed? (Destroying the evil development and civilization that threatens the sancitity of nature). OR should it be that ents can simply NOT enter cities? If Ents are going to be allowed bombard capabilities (and frankly i think this makes sense) then there has to be a drawback for that particular unit. My theory is anti-city qualities, in all respects.
-Qes

 

[Kael]

i want treants to get collateral damage to make them more effective against enemy intruders stacks of units. bombard wouldn't really come into effect until the late game (can't summon treants that last longer than a turn until Commune with Nature).

The Acheron Principle- Imagine Acheron and an orc unit sitting on a hill. Now imagine the creature you are considering attacking the hill only to die horribly to Acheron while the orc watches. In the battle you envision did the orc get hurt?

If the orc did get hurt then that may be a good creature for collateral damage. If the orc didn't get hurt then it probably shouldn't have it.