random thoughts

[QES]

The Acheron Principle- Imagine Acheron and an orc unit sitting on a hill. Now imagine the creature you are considering attacking the hill only to die horribly to Acheron while the orc watches. In the battle you envision did the orc get hurt?

If the orc did get hurt then that may be a good creature for collateral damage. If the orc didn't get hurt then it probably shouldn't have it.

Frankly Kael, i see Treents (thanks in large part to Tolkien and recent films) bombarding AND causing collateral damage. Treeent combat doesnt seem very precise to me, and it strikes me that whatever happens to be in the way of stomping, GETS stomped. That or thrashed, knocked about, and generally Doggknobberd.
-Qes

 

[Chandrasekhar]

The Acheron Principle- Imagine Acheron and an orc unit sitting on a hill. Now imagine the creature you are considering attacking the hill only to die horribly to Acheron while the orc watches. In the battle you envision did the orc get hurt?

I don't know why, but that seems really funny to me.

 

[AlazkanAssassin]

The orc didn't get hurt, but any wall between the Treant and it's untimely demise may have gotten ripped apart (no collateral; close-range damage to city defense)

 

[Sureshot]

if that orc manages to survive a battle involving a dragon and a treant i'd be impressed (though i think archeron would kill him first lol)

but ive changed my mind:
treants AND archeron should have collateral damage

 

[Kael]

if that orc manages to survive a battle involving a dragon and a treant i'd be impressed (though i think archeron would kill him first lol)

but ive changed my mind:
treants AND archeron should have collateral damage

.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Maybe treants could automatically bombard a little when attacking, but only when attacking? Collateral, probably not.

 

[QES]

@Chand~
Maybe. Er just give em the option, like catapults. I mean lets be honest. A treent is going to be able (in general) to fling a stone as far as a catapult. ANd it has the added benefit of being able to STOMP on things.

"I named him Stampy."
-Qes

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I guess I just envision treants as charging into the city, crushing every single thing that didn't grow there on its own. That, and the fact that the elves' lack of siege weapons might be pretty pointless if they could summon treants to do it for them.

 

[QES]

@Chand~
Agreed.

So then, if Treents (and therefor druids) are the answer, should they not have then these qualities? Considering you cannot stockpile them, being the summons they are, is it too much to give to the elves? I'd opt for giving it to them. But i could see people <Cough Unser> suggesting it'd create further unbalance in their favor.
-Qes

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I'd say give it to them, but make their forest improvements slighty more poopish. As I've mentioned in my tree huggery thread, I really don't see the elves as being almost as much of an economic powerhouse as gilded dwarves. They really ought to get something else from forests...

 

[QES]

You know it'd be VERY cool if units could get "lost" in the woods. Like a % chance to randomly go in a direction away from valuable territories.

You enter a Ancient forest...but your troops get "lost" and either A) disapear entirely and reapear somewhere else. B) Die - maybe reserve this for barbarian/monster "haunted forests" or C) move oddly and not consistantly when entering/leaving Ancient forests.
-Qes

 

[Jono]

You know it'd be VERY cool if units could get "lost" in the woods. Like a % chance to randomly go in a direction away from valuable territories.

You enter a Ancient forest...but your troops get "lost" and either A) disapear entirely and reapear somewhere else. B) Die - maybe reserve this for barbarian/monster "haunted forests" or C) move oddly and not consistantly when entering/leaving Ancient forests.
-Qes

Maybe units "trained" at a fort (1 unit trained per fort, would give some sort of bonus) could never get lost? maybe units couldn't get lost in terrain near a sentry tower?

 

[tyrantpimp]

You know it'd be VERY cool if units could get "lost" in the woods. Like a % chance to randomly go in a direction away from valuable territories.

You enter a Ancient forest...but your troops get "lost" and either A) disapear entirely and reapear somewhere else. B) Die - maybe reserve this for barbarian/monster "haunted forests" or C) move oddly and not consistantly when entering/leaving Ancient forests.
-Qes

I like that idea, seems realistic too. Maybe units with woodsmanship or something might be exempted. Oh and if there are roads should probably not work then either.

 

[Sureshot]

I'd say give it to them, but make their forest improvements slighty more poopish. As I've mentioned in my tree huggery thread, I really don't see the elves as being almost as much of an economic powerhouse as gilded dwarves. They really ought to get something else from forests...

well your tree-bashery is not the answer.
the simple facts have already shown they are not economic powerhouses (they don't receive a single more than a vanilla civ, and they don't have a financial leader; and if anything, given their penchant for woods, they lose out on any river ).

something that would help bring others up to par (most civs still need work, the only area elves really excel in is their amount of unique units) would be giving city defender bonuses when a unit is on cottages/hamlets/villages/towns so that others can similarly defend their important holdings (though it shouldnt apply to elven villages since their villages and such already get a forest defense bonus). archers then on a town would get use of their +50% city bonus and any city defender promotions. i mentioned this in the fort thread.

about using treants as siege engines, im sure they could, but worrying about it as a balance issue is crazy, as its a high end tech and you could just as easily get meteors for the same effect (and isnt the treant summoning spell specific to leaves? removing their ability to get siege in any form at any time is silly, itd be like not allowing them to get Pact of Nilhorn or mages when the lack of siege engines in reliable massproduced ways is the true crippling).
though, if they were to get collateral damage they should have their strength reduced to around 6 id think, a 10 strength summon with collateral damage and bombardment would be a bit much for any level spell.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Seems that the majority of people in the tree huggery thread agree with me about the elves being economic powerhouses. There's a reason I called it "Mob Rule," you know.

In any case, you have to admit that elves building massive infrastructures and creating tons of units doesn't fit their flavor very well at all. Even you should be able to see that they get more , easier, than perhaps any Civ besides the Khazad with maxed vaults.

 

[QES]

The elves are powerhouses economically not becasue of their massive production/money bonuses, but because they dont lose land or units very often. WHen you dont have to replace your units (because they dont die) or when you are able to grab enough land (using defensive units and multiple upgraded cities) you win the economy struggle. The elves win through volume, and they protect that volume with their unique array of defenses.
-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

Play against a human player and you'll think differently.

Play against me and I'll level your cities and laugh as you try to take mine, and you won't make it to archmages I can guarrantee you that. And after I take your civilization as slaves I'll use the lovely forest towns mechanic myself.

And I'm not certain how you get more production than I can get, you see, mines (which will also reveal a resource given enough time) give more and so do lumbermills. The whole thing is an illusion, people see 1 more production (and maybe 1 more food if you get leaves) and they can't wrap their mind around that that doesn't mean better than everyone else. Especially considering their horrible drawbacks and no financial leaders.

 

[QES]

@Sureshot, that directed at me or Chand~?

 

[Sureshot]

both, at once! lmao

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Sureshot, unless the Khazad have developed an immunity to hunger that I haven't been informed of, you need food from other tiles to work mines. The elves excell in that they can get an extra hammer on every tile that they work. Let me put it to you this way:

Two plains/forest tiles, with an elven farm built on each: self sustaining, four

One grassland with sanitation farm, one plains/hills with normal mine: self sustaining, four

The elves can get a better food-to-hammer ratio from the beginning than other Civs can until sanitation.