Red Diamond Threads

To me it's easy - see a Red Diamind - moderate strictly, don't see a Red Diamond, give a bit of leeway.

You are asking the posters to go through more work - checking the status of a thread to know if a heightened posting standard applies - I don't see the problem with the mods taking on the same status check. Also, a poster can decide to opt of reading or participating in a thread based on Red Diamind status - those with delicate sensibilities can choose to stick to Red Diamind and those with need to stay awake can stick to non-Red Diamond.

I will even go so far an suggest one of the icons be used to designate the opposite of Red Diamond - a discussion thread where you enter at your own risk - where moderation is very light.
I wish the moderating of discussions was as easy as you make it seem. Designating stuff clearly is easy and the bright red diamond is to do just that. Moderating the current discussions is very difficult and time consuming. The in between area you are espousing is a very broad and yet difficult target to hit consistently. Witness our current state of affairs.

There are no easy answers and in our search we are trying this. Your points are good ones and I will keep them in mind as we work through this change. This is a work in progress that has to begin somewhere.
 
If you're going to do this you really need to set standards for content and not just style. "Style over substance" is supposed to be a bad thing.
 
I really dislike the spammy nature of "What is your favorite . . .?" threads. Could I start one such as "What is your favorite Lucky Charms marshmallow?" and designate it to the Red Diamond District?

In the opening post I would make it clear I wanted an answer and why. I would also point out that I did not include a downtown or radioactive monkey option in the poll to reinforce the serious nature of the expected discussion. My favorite, by the way, is blue diamond, but I will save the reason why to any thread I may start on the subject.
 
General comment: the idea isn't to stifle discussion. That is obviously one of the things we will be actively and consciously looking out for in these threads. We wouldn't be doing this unless we thought it was going to improve the forums, and stifling discussion would not lend itself to that practice. Of course you can disagree on whether or not this will work; and that's what the trial period and feedback is for. But please keep in mind that it is not some sort of nefarious plot to get rid of all things fun and enjoyable. In fact, it's the opposite. It's a plot to get rid of frustration and antipathy, coming in the light of months and months or complaint and feedback from OT regulars.

Ultimately, the problem is that you want (a) better, more serious discussion, but (b) intend to enforce it by focussing solely on trolling/flaming/one-liners/etc. Better discussion isn't just about civility -- it's also about the content of the posts. If your content stinks, your post sucks, and degrades the quality of the entire thread. The enforcement simply doesn't align correctly with the goal.

This might improve the forums anyway, but I don't believe you've got the principle right.

We can't moderate what a moderator or member may find to be a ridiculous opinion. But we can identify styles that have a tendency to degrade discussions and provoke negative reactions. We want to encourage people to move away from those styles. One of the biggest complaints with moderation seems to be that the focus is on punishing those that snap back at ridiculousness. And those that do so will still be punished. However, we are attempting to remove a large part of the provocation that causes people to snap back. People can civilly disagree all the time, and this is much more likely to occur when posting styles are not troublesome. If someone is posting something non-contributive, or simply posting, "No, you're wrong", that isn't either making a contribution to the thread, or being conducive to civil responses. The main style that is being targeted; 'non-contributive posts', is heavily linked with content, in that if your post does not provide any, it falls into that category. The community has been telling us fairly clearly the endpoint they are looking for, and this, whilst not necessarily being a silver bullet, hopefully provides the means to get to that end.

You are asking the posters to go through more work - checking the status of a thread to know if a heightened posting standard applies - I don't see the problem with the mods taking on the same status check. Also, a poster can decide to opt of reading or participating in a thread based on Red Diamind status - those with delicate sensibilities can choose to stick to Red Diamind and those with need to stay awake can stick to non-Red Diamond.

I will even go so far an suggest one of the icons be used to designate the opposite of Red Diamond - a discussion thread where you enter at your own risk - where moderation is very light.

We want to maintain a standard for the forum, and for the duration of the 90 day trial, we are attempting this standard. We already regulated a standard in threads as they were, and this is a clarification of that standard, such that we can target those posts that are troublesome and are non-contributive and are not conducive to civil and productive discussion. The idea is to move all threads on what can be termed 'serious'* topics to this standard, not to allow for an opt-out for those who would like to make poor quality and non-contributive posts. That this standard does not preclude good quality posting and contributive posts means that there should be no need for those who are here for discussion, those that are here to contribute, those that are here to engage civilly, to continue to participate and enjoy participating in OT. We frankly don't want the drivel some threads have tended to descend into, so the idea is to move away from the standard that allows it.

Keep in mind that the vast majority of posts in existent threads are still going to be perfectly fine under the new system. We're just looking to get rid of non-contributive posts, utter drivel and tiresome bickering, in line with the wishes the community has expressed.

*As has been said, this does not mean dull or not fun. It simply is a word we are using to refer to that group of threads that are designed to discuss some relatively serious issues, whether it be in current affairs, religion, etc. This doesn't include threads like "Daily Mail: Striking Teachers kill 13 year old girl"; that thread was perfectly acceptable as a lighter thread. "Burglar Stabbed To Death: Is This Self-Defence?" is an example of a thread that would fit into this category.

One further thing; in order for this trial to succeed, it's imperative that people trying to work with it. It's obviously not going to work if people actively attempt to ruin it, so attempts to give it a go are greatly appreciated. :)
 
Can I request that the Red Diamond icon be slightly smaller?
 
One further thing; in order for this trial to succeed, it's imperative that people trying to work with it. It's obviously not going to work if people actively attempt to ruin it, so attempts to give it a go are greatly appreciated. :)
Give us something we want to succeed. If I had made the burglar thread, I would not wanted that Red Diamond'd. I do however have a thread in mind for later this year where Red DIamond would be perfect.

If you made the Red Diamond opt in, I would embrace the system and actually make an decent attempt at posting in a positive manner. If you are just stamping stuff "serious" then it will just be treated as a construction zone that I want to fail.
 
Give us something we want to succeed. If I had made the burglar thread, I would not wanted that Red Diamond'd. I do however have a thread in mind for later this year where Red DIamond would be perfect.

If you made the Red Diamond opt in, I would embrace the system and actually make an decent attempt at posting in a positive manner. If you are just stamping stuff "serious" then it will just be treated as a construction zone that I want to fail.

I don't see why anyone would want to see it fail. No-one has tried the system yet and it has already been denounced as not allowing for fun (I'm not sure why you think you wouldn't want that thread to be an RD thread, because it wouldn't impinge on any of the contributive posts within it). That isn't the case. Sure, there are limitations on posts in these threads now, in that posters aren't able to engage in tiresome bickering, and aren't allowed to post utter drivel, but unless you are wanting that sort of content (and the staff do not), then this system only makes things better. Why try and ruin it for everyone? This system is here for a 90 day trial, so you can either at least attempt to help it succeed, or if you're not inclined to do so, actively look to make OT a worse place.

The restriction on one-liners for instance does not mean you cannot make one-liners. It means that your one-liner has to be relevant to the discussion. And even if you are making a one-liner that is only tangentially related, that is still allowed, so long as you are posting something of substance alongside it.
 
So we can still be non serious as long as it looks serious?
 
Because it allows the mods to opt a thread into a higher standard of moderation without the original poster's consent. Make it voluntary and I am all for it.

Moderation has never been opt-in.

That said, if you're wanting a lighter thread on a topic*, then by all means that's fine and it's generally not going to be made an RD thread. However, if the OP is designed to be as a serious discussion, then the serious discussion moderation is going to be applied. If someone starts a thread to discuss some contentious political issue, or a supreme court ruling, then it will made an RD thread, and moderation will be RD standard. The point I guess with saying, "I don't see why anyone would want to see it fail," is that if you've made an OP designed for serious discussion, then I don't see why that's not what you'd want. I don't see why you wouldn't want tiresome bickering and completely non-contributory posts removed.

*An example- say you're poking fun at a news organisation for some ridiculous story they've printed. That's not really intended to be a serious discussion, even if the issue is serious. You want it to be a light thread. And that is perfectly fine. However, it is possible that once the fun wears off and the conversation has turned to partisan bickering, that the RD label will be applied. This doesn't prevent you from having fun with the light take on a news story early on in the thread, but once people have moved on from that, then it may very well be made an RD thread.
 
The point I guess with saying, "I don't see why anyone would want to see it fail," is that if you've made an OP designed for serious discussion, then I don't see why that's not what you'd want. I don't see why you wouldn't want tiresome bickering and completely non-contributory posts removed.
If I've made a thread "designed for serious discussion", I would mark it as Red Diamond. If I want a bit more leeway with off-topic puns and one liners or a bit more bickering than would be tolerated in the Red Diamond District, I would not mark it Red Diamond. Posters can avoid my unmarked thread if that offends their delicate sensibilities.

It seems now, mods would be guessing and/or overrifding my intention, instead of letting me declare it. Why, as one who values freedom and liberty, would I want such a system to work?
 
This definitely has the potential to work, but I definitely don't think it is properly addressing the problem that cfc has. To have good content boards definitely need a good community and good topics, and I think cfc definitely has those, moreso I'd say than any other forum I've been a part of, but I think having those things on their own is not, and will never be enough. The problem I've seen with the cfc staff this last year or two as they continue to blindfoldedly throw darts on a board hoping to isolate the perceived "problem" with ot is that they consistently surmise that they best way to improve discussion is to stifle so called "problem posters", but in the rpocess of doing so, they simultaneously stifle the discussion of everyone else on ot. Think of it from the perspective of the RD threads. If posters know for a fact (as we now do) that RD threads will be more strictly moderated, then posters will be less willing post their thoughts, especially if they fear that they may be toeing the line with the post Less posts means that you'll be stuck with maybe 2 or 3 very thoughtful responses and then a thread that dies within a couple hours of it being started.

Anyway, my point is that I think the problem lays more in the style of moderation which seems to be much more common on ot these past few months; infractions handed out for even the most negligible of comments, threads with serious potential (at the very least entertainment potential) closed well before anything actually goes wrong in the thread and the like To me this does far, far more to stifle discussion than any "trouble posters" can.

I think the moderation staff was on the right tack when they brought .shane. on board. I liked his noninvasive, easy-going but firm when necessary style of moderating, and personally I think finding more moderators along those lines is going to contribute much more towards improving cfcot than any implementation of new features or rules changes is going to.

Anyway, that's just my long, rambling 0.02.
 
I'm pretty much in agreement with Owen Glyndwr's post, though I think the problem lies less with the moderating style and more with the moderators thinking that there is a problem in the first place.

I for one, think the OT is fine, maybe there are some small problems here or there (quotewarring can get annoying after a while) but most of these are negligible. Discussion still manages to go on, and it's interesting. Who cares if someone makes an off-color comment in an otherwise serious thread? I mean, if there's just one or two, it's not going to kill the discussion. In fact, it might spawn further discussion. By forcing people to be "serious", you will get nowhere. Things like serious discussions must arise on there own, and cannot be forced, which I guess is what I'm trying to get at.

If you want to make the OT "serious", well, leave that to the OT. If people really want a thread to have a serious discussion, then they will craft their OP to do that, and because of that it will arise on it's own. There doesn't need to be any meddling on the moderators behalf, because that will just kill/stifle conversation, and dissuade people from those threads.

EDIT: To sum up my thoughts better, "serious" conversation will come about on it's own, it cannot be forced. The OT doesn't always need to be serious, and if it lacks a single thread with serious discussion then that might just reflect what the posters want. If the posters just want to take a topic and screw around with it, more power to them. If the posters here want to have a serious, deep, discussion, then it will be so, and someone will make a thread to have that discussion in it. You can't force posters to be "serious" on a topic for an entire thread, and then expect it to be successful. For a thread to be successful, with a meaningful discussion (no matter how many off-color one liner's are spout) then it must be created entirely by the posters themselves, not be artificial with mod intervention making sure "everyone is in line". No, discussion's don't work like that, and they never will work like that.
 
I used to post here and think this was a very unique site because of its internationally, politically and age diverse posters. I think I was a rather serious poster. I also think the site is overmoderated now and there are rather few interesting discussions. Discussions of politics, religion, philosophy etc. will sometimes get heated if undertaken by normal human beings as opposed to robots. This is part of what makes them interesting. A bit of witty repartee (ie trolling) is what makes them interesting and fun to participate in (for people who are interesting and fun). The thing that makes a site is the type of people it attracts and that will vary overtime, for this site probably mostly based on the quality of the current Civ iteration. No amount of moderation will help this. Over time I saw more and more discussions stifled by infracting a slightly mocking or trollish comment that was clever and content laden bringing interesting threads to an end.

The idea of the RD or super serious forum has been tried before as a special sticky thread or an OT spinoff –or both I forget. It failed because no one participated. The current iteration is a trick to keep it mixed with the main OT in the hopes that more will participate. I think it will also fail because the whole ambience of OT is to have the goofy 14 yr olds ideas mixed with the 23 yr old recent grad and the trollish 50 yr old lawyer. It has worked and can work if allowed to. That means I have to sort through picture and happy birthday threads and one line non-sequiturs in a “serious” thread. It is not such a burden and can be amusing and anything else ruins what is special about OT. For those who want such seriousness may I suggest auditing a university course or just keep an OT spinoff forum with whatever participation you can get-ie very little.


As the mods like to point out it is TFs site and you have no rights here. Fine. I notice 19 members currently logged in to OT-moderated by 14 moderators! Enjoy your site.
 
Would've preferred a thumbnail of serious cat instead of the ruby.
Spoiler :
serious-cat.jpg
 
Cam, I think you may better understand the resistance some posters are displaying to this idea if you approach it from their viewpoint.

It's a fairly common opinion that OT is over-moderated, although I imagine that's not the dominant strain of thought among the mods. What the introduction of "red diamond" threads amounts to is an announcement that (at some point after the current trial period) the moderators will be applying even more stringent moderation to any thread covering politics, religion, or other topics viewed to be "serious" by forum staff. When you combine that

I respect that CFC's moderators are doing their best to devise innovative solutions to the problem of moderating a large and boisterous sub-community. But this particular effort probably needs to be modified from it's current form.
 
Anyway, my point is that I think the problem lays more in the style of moderation which seems to be much more common on ot these past few months; infractions handed out for even the most negligible of comments, threads with serious potential (at the very least entertainment potential) closed well before anything actually goes wrong in the thread and the like To me this does far, far more to stifle discussion than any "trouble posters" can.

I'd have to agree. I've seen a lot of things moderated in OT that probably wouldn't have been moderated in earlier times, and probably aren't really big problems. I've noticed it a lot more over the past month, with the addition of all the new mods to OT. I don't mean to offend you guys and it might just be a coincidence, but almost all of the recent infractions for borderline things were handed out by one of the new mods. I think you're all doing good jobs, but some things should just be allowed to slide- things like the light-hearted jabs, the witty one-liners, and the serious arguments that still have to cross the line a bit to make a good point frequently contribute to the thread as much as the serious posts do, and usually aren't intended to be offensive/spammy and aren't percieved as offensive/spammy. I could probably find several good examples of moderating in situations like these, but that would be PDMA.
 
May I request that posts in RD threads that show, blatantly, that the poster didn't bother to read the OP be worthy of infraction. That's probably my, and many others here, biggest pet peeve.
 
We can't moderate what a moderator or member may find to be a ridiculous opinion. But we can identify styles that have a tendency to degrade discussions and provoke negative reactions. We want to encourage people to move away from those styles.
Actually, you can perfectly well moderate the ridiculousness of a claim - infracting someone for trolling imply you saw he was making ridiculous points in order to cause trouble, and as such it's something your already do.
The "style" that degrade discussion the most is making ridiculous, unsubstantiated points that ruin the quality of a discussion, or ignoring the points made by others - effectively making the discussion meaningless or absent.
One of the biggest complaints with moderation seems to be that the focus is on punishing those that snap back at ridiculousness.
Yes. I'll repeat what I said previously : the problem is that moderation encourage political correctness rather than intellectual honesty. And it's done in a rampaging fashion, infracting left and right for petty points that make people more concerned about not offending someone, even if it makes for poor debate, than about making good points, even if they are not politicall correct - which is often the case, political correctness being one of the major obstacle for intelligent discussion.
It's encouraging people to abandon debating the actual ideas to focus on battling over the form. It encourages people to play dumb - not really something that make for more intelligent or constructive threads.
However, we are attempting to remove a large part of the provocation that causes people to snap back. People can civilly disagree all the time, and this is much more likely to occur when posting styles are not troublesome. If someone is posting something non-contributive, or simply posting, "No, you're wrong", that isn't either making a contribution to the thread, or being conducive to civil responses. The main style that is being targeted; 'non-contributive posts', is heavily linked with content, in that if your post does not provide any, it falls into that category.
The problem is not only someone posting something non-contributive because it's unrelated to the thread or it's just a one-liner.
The problem is more people who make the discussion run in circle without going nowhere. Because they may make long post on-subjects, but these posts completely lack any kind of reasoning ; because they are proved wrong repeatedly over many points but simply slip them back a bit later like nothing ever happened ; because they ignore the arguments that prove them wrong ; etc.

THIS is disruptive behaviour toward quality of discussion. But for now, as long as there is no swear word in it, they can do it all day long, and it's the guy who call out them on it that is infracted.

Intensifying this problem in the threads that are supposed to be about the total opposite, and expanding it then to include all the "serious" subject, is not going to go down well.
I don't see why anyone would want to see it fail.
See the whole rest of my message.
You're basically saying "hey, in order to improve the discussions, we're going to increase the dose of what is actually the point which is the most harmful to the quality of the discussion !". Guess why some of us aren't thrilled to see the experiment works ?
May I request that posts in RD threads that show, blatantly, that the poster didn't bother to read the OP be worthy of infraction. That's probably my, and many others here, biggest pet peeve.
This is something I agree totally with, and is FAR more disruptive to a good quality discussion than someone shouting "your reasoning is completely stupid" when it's actually true.
 
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