Reload or play through? (Generic advice, not game-specific)

[guspasho]

I reload the game a lot. For someone who is still learning, is this superior to playing the game through, or inferior, or just plain frowned upon? I try to experiment and try other tactics/strategies when I realize I've made a mistake or I think I could have done something else more optimally, especially early in the game, when reloading doesn't cost a lot of time yet. I use it to experiment and find the optimal worker orders, build orders, tech orders, etc. Often I'll miss the one-turn window for a two-pop whip.

But the problem with this is my reloads come with foreknowledge that I shouldn't have, and it's too tempting to abuse it to avoid battles that I'll lose, send my scouts in different directions, get better goody hut rewards (or worse, beeline all the goody huts!), plan where nearby rivals send their workers for an easy worker steal, or make sure I don't lose a wonder race or a good city location to another civ.

It's just too tempting to cheat. Should I just avoid the heck out of using the reload button? I suppose I've just answered my own question, but have you experienced the same problem, and how do you resolve it? Do you all just have better self-control than I do?

 

[Seraiel]

There was a great guide on reloading in the Strategies and Tactics subsection. I think I was a 7th degree (or highest degree) reloader, so I reloaded for the same reasons like you, i. e. winning a battle that I would otherwise have lost. Yet, I never made it above Emperor.

Then 2 years passed, I became a really good gamer in MMO's, and when I came back I wanted to conquer the 2 remaining difficulties of CIV. Having played games where reloading is impossible, but also having gotten so great experience with MMOs, it suddenly was clear to me, that the only one I'd cheat with reloading would be myself, because this is a single player game, there are no opponents. It wasn't so much necessary to still reload anyhow, because all of the great tips on this site really help to get a better player.

I became really happy, once I was almost past reloading completely, and started playing for HoF. Played a test-game in which I reloaded once, they detected it and excluded it. I was happy about that, because their work would make sure, that I (and others) would need to play legitimately, and I loved competetive playing since I began with Computers at the age of 4, when I played against my brothers.

Today, I neither can, nor do I need to reload. Every game is special, and I treat it as that. It doesn't matter, if I don't succeed with something, because then, I got the chance to learn something. Last game I played was a Normal speed Spacerace in which I missed Oracle, Liberalism, Economics, the Taj Mahal and the SoL (with 30 continent cities) , I got 3 Fail-Great-Prophets, 1 Fail-Great-Artist, lost about 7-10 more units in war than the RNG showed (that's a lot if you only got a stack of 15 units) .
Still, I finished in 1500 AD, scored a #1 position and the fastest Normal speed Spacerace of all times. My memory is "legendary game in which almost everything that could went wrong" and I can see it in the HoF for as long, until somebody decides to beat it (but still then, he's gonna have a hard time, because 1500 AD is really pretty good ) .

Now what would my memory be, if I had cheated my way to victory? Would I still think of the game as "legendary" ? Would I even have been faster, because of having missed so many learning chances before?

Those are questions I cannot answer.

 

[elitetroops]

Agree with Seraiel, the game is much more fun when you play it without reloads. There's a feeling of accomplishment that you wouldn't get otherwise. At some point I also used to reload a lot back when I was playing the lower levels. Main problem was that I wouldn't finish most games, because there's no satisfying reward for finishing a game through constant reloads. Playing for HoF helped me as well. In those games you cannot reload and there's a strong incentive to finish the game.

That said, I think reloads can be useful for learning as well. If you for example end up in a losing position that you cannot beat, then you can reload 50 turns back and try to play it differently, to see if you can avoid getting into that mess. But reloading an earlier save from the same turn can never teach you anything. And while learning the game, I'd recommend you turn off those goody huts, that will already save you a lot of reloads.

Another way of using reloads for learning would be to play the same start several times with different build and tech orders. Play some 30-50 turns, always stop at the same turn and write down what you have built, how big your city/cities are, hammers in production bar, food in food bar and techs researched+beakers into next tech. Then you can compare the different approaches and get a feel for what kind of build orders work best.

 

[Izuul]

Sometimes when i encounter a mechanic that I'm unsure of I'll save the game and reload a few times to try to figure it out. Reloading because you made a bad move won't teach you anything though.

 

[SpK]

Sometimes when i encounter a mechanic that I'm unsure of I'll save the game and reload a few times to try to figure it out. Reloading because you made a bad move won't teach you anything though.

While I generally agree with that sentiment, I am not opposed to making a save at a crucial point so you can try out a (long term) strategy, see how it plays out, then go back and play "normally"

I would say reloads with intent are different than just going back 50 turns (or 3 turns) because you made a mistake. If i make a mistake or use poor tactics, I play it out.


strategy vs tactics and trying to learn vs trying to fix matter. , I think. I personally don't reload at all, but have been known to abandon games often ;-)

 

[Izuul]

I was speaking more about a situation where you make a foolish attack and lose a lot of units, or move your stack out into the open and get hammered, or take risks while scouting and lose your starting warrior to a barb animal/warrior/etc, or refuse a demand and immediately get red fisted, or any number of things like that, and then reload the game afterwards.

You can certainly learn from your mistakes, but the lesson is often learned before the reload and not after. Frequently reloading in situations like that can actually do the opposite and blind a player to the underlying causes of those mistakes and how to avoid them or at least substantially reduce the risk of them.

 

[SpK]

I agree, reloading for things like that is ....silly..... and definitely counter productive to improvement
May as well just WB stuff....

 

[stevenburns]

I rarely reload but I do it. Mostly when I forget to cancel a worker's move or action and would waste a turn. I used to reload lost battles in the first 50 turns if the odds to lose were < 5% but I figured I should have teched archery or evaded the battle at all if I couldnt stand to lose it. Especially in the opening phase I have a habbit of planning "a few turns in advance" and I happen to misclick a lot while trying to speed up a little. That's a reload for me that I dont consider cheating. Its just a combination of my laziness and stupidity I correct.
If you want to get better, one shouldnt reload tactical mistakes, wrong assumptions about AI behaviour or poorly executed attacks and stuff like that. Not sure about super early DoWs as it doesnt happen too often. I guess I'll replay from turn 0 then.

 

[Izuul]

I still reload legit misclicks most of the time. Obviously can't do that in a SGOTM or HOF setting, but in my personal games... yeah i do it.

I've done the SGOTM thing and i can tell you the absolute worst part of playing those games is the constant fear of making a misclick on a really important unit move, and then having to tell the entire team afterwards. That aspect of the game isn't very enjoyable.

 

[Pangaea]

Reloading can be a great way to learn from your mistakes, but it is also easy to get 'hooked'

A good way to get rid of the habit is to play for the HoF. Then you can't reload, or the game will be rejected. You'll then learn to live with small mistakes like a wasted worker turn here or there, though the "oh crap, I forgot to whip and now it's 1-pop" is still annoying

 

[Cyborg T]

Played a test-game in which I reloaded once, they detected it and excluded it. I was happy about that, because their work would make sure, that I (and others) would need to play legitimately, and I loved competetive playing since I began with Computers at the age of 4, when I played against my brothers.

How do they prevent anyone from opening the savegame in another PC and playing a test run???

 

[Seraiel]

How do they prevent anyone from opening the savegame in another PC and playing a test run???

By Gauntlets like the last one. If someone cheats, the team gangs up on him and shows him who the real boss is.

 

[elmurcis]

I had this problem really often... but after I won that kind of game.... i felt empty not happy about what I did (because i knew I changed something to be ready for attack for example)..
Last game I finally won no-reload deity game (domination 1772AD, Mara, Huge, 17 Ai, no-tech trading, Archip map type), I made few tactical mistakes (like loosing entire attack stack with last archer remaining (at 0.2 health)... I had this wish in head (reload.. reload... reload...) but I got over it and got this game under my control until the end (finish date actually could be some turns faster because of Diplo win possible but i was going for Domination). That was game where I had wars with almost every possible unit in game (1st with Horse archers, last with SAM infantries+artillery+bombers and guided missiles ). And 0 wars started from AI side (lucky that dangerous AI already had long wars with others AI so I had time to vasal civ by civ...)

 

[Pangaea]

I made few tactical mistakes (like loosing entire attack stack with last archer remaining (at 0.2 health)...

Gah, don't you just hate that?

You units are probably all injured or near dead (or all dead). Then he whips another archer (or longbow!), and the 0.2 health bloke is near full health next turn with city guardian 2. Noooooooooooooo!

Congrats with a no-reload Deity win btw. It feels great Now try it on normal speed, if you haven't already. Trickier than Marathon.

 

[labellavienna]

By Gauntlets like the last one. If someone cheats, the team gangs up on him and shows him who the real boss is.

Would you mind recommending your favorite strategy games?

 

[Seraiel]

Would you mind recommending your favorite strategy games?

Everbody says CIV4 is the best, so I trust and stick to it. I find it awesomely good aswell, but not sure it's really the best. I found MoO II very good too, and I liked C&C Generals, but I wasn't a very good player back then, I liked the (insane) Generals Challenge of C&C Generals very much though. One game I think not that many will know was "Total Annihilation" , which was so awesome because it was the first game with no unit-limit and unlimited buildings, not like Starcraft, where everything was limited, TA even had unlimited resources, and it had so many strategies with which one could take out opponents.

 

[labellavienna]

I never heard of any of those haha, interesting. Have you tried RON? I heard it is pretty good. The only other RTS game i played was Age of empires but i hated focusing on war all the time since I am mostly a pacifist and like to aid other countries and support them...but not rushing to start destroying things.

 

[Seraiel]

I never heard of any of those haha, interesting. Have you tried RON? I heard it is pretty good. The only other RTS game i played was Age of empires but i hated focusing on war all the time since I am mostly a pacifist and like to aid other countries and support them...but not rushing to start destroying things.

Never heard of RON before. Read the Wikipedia article on it, sounds like Civilization as RTS.

If you don't like conquering land, then CIV might only partly be a good game for you, because it's mostly a war game. More territory always means more power in CIV, so except for Cultural Victories, you always want to have as much land as possible.
Pacifists can be quite effective at war btw. , it only costs a little more .

 

[ShiVvV]

These days, about the only time I'm ever really tempted to reload is when I lose that GG-medic chariot attacking at 97%+ odds. But, even then, reloading to rewrite unfortunate events like that taint the game forever imo. It seems that lately most games I play use HoF mod so reloading is not an option.

Reloading in personal games to optimize worker or city micro, tech trading/tech paths is certainly something I've done in the past where I wanted to compare the resulting game situation had I done this vs. that however.

There is a specific situation that I've had happen relatively recently in a couple of competitive game settings (where reloads not allowed) and I'm wondering if any of you guys have had this happen in your games. Have any of you experienced unintended/unwanted declarations of war against AIs that occur when you click on their leader name in the scoreboard?

Often near the end of turns, as I finish my worker actions, I will select an active worker and use "Alt + cancel orders icon" to clear all current worker actions. I have a theory (which I haven't tested btw) that if you click on an AI's name in scoreboard immediately after having cleared worker actions in this way--that a DoW will result against that AI. Trust me, I've had it happen twice now in two different games! (I do realize that depressing Alt key + clicking on leader's name declares war; not what I'm describing here).

Anybody have experience with this unwanted DoW occurence?

 

[Lennier]

TMIT has repoted that as theUI's most annoying bug. Apparently it sometimes thinks you have the alt key depressed when you really don't.