remember 9/11

[illram]

When you claim monopoly on 9/11, you shouldn't expect foreigners to care. But you do expect just that. It's not your tragedy. It happened in your country, but it's not your tragedy. If you think that 9/11 was a tragedy that only impacted America, I have news for you.

I know you are saying this in response to someone else but I would like to interject here. And what I am going to say is not directed at you but in general to anyone reading this.

No one should have a monopoly on 9/11. No one should have the right to dictate who deserves to feel suffering about a particular event and on what terms.

On the other hand, people do deserve respect for the way that they feel about a certain event, such as 9/11, and the sort of childish provocation that this thread is about shows the opposite of that respect.

A discussion about whether Americans lack empathy for others or whether they deserve sympathy or whether they have a myopic view of world events is one thing. I think that's a perfectly valid discussion. Getting there by pretending to care about another tragic event in an intentional effort to provoke an emotional response by people who you know will be provoked (i.e. trolling) is different. It's juvenile. There are people whose families died on that day 11 years ago. If you're mom or dad or brother or sister was murdered 11 years ago and some goofball on an internet forum starting making light of that murder how would you feel?

For an American, that wound is still open. It's fresh. I still cannot re-watch footage of the planes hitting the towers on that day. If I think about it too much I still get choked up. That day really affected me and my family and my friends, and even though I personally did not lose anyone close, it affected me in numerous other personal and significant ways that I am not going to talk about right now. I know it is the same way for almost all Americans. It still is a uniquely powerful day and a uniquely powerful memory for everyone--particularly in this country.

I know it is fun to needle Americans about how stupidly American they are. But like this? Not cool. An OP like this will get angry responses. It deserves them. I'm not saying this with my mod hat on, I am saying this as a person asking for some understanding. And not necessarily to you Ziggy, but to anyone reading this.

That's all I am going to say, because this whole thing riles me up a little bit.

 

[Lot In Space]

Can I just ask something? And really I don't intend to be provocative (well not much), but I would like to know: why do you (generic you) think that Al Quaeda did those attacks on the WTC?

What do you think they hoped to gain by it?

And what, for that matter, does Terry Jones hope to gain?

1.) "Because they hate our freedom." Don't ask me to make sense out of that.

A few other things:

"Religious reasons"

"Support for Israel"

"Supporting dictatorships"

"Control for the world's oil supply"

I think these are the usual things your average American would say.

2.) Islamic Caliphate.

3.) Possibly to gain more members for his congregation. It equals to more money for the congregation.

 

[Borachio]

@Illram
I think I understand this feeling. And I sympathize. Would you say 9/11 has entered the American psyche the same way as Pearl Harbor did? As a real bolt from the blue. Or even, though not so similar, JFK?

There are some moments which go down as landmarks. And 9/11 must surely be one.

Even as a non-American, 9/11 is a very significant memory for me. (Though I'd remember when it happened, in the year, more easily if it was 11/9.)

 

[Lot In Space]

It will be the new "Pearl Harbor" as that was once the symbol for the old generation. 9'11 will be something to replace the old "Pearl Harbor" with the new for the new generation of Americans and the upcoming ones as well.

There could be a possibility of another similar "Pear Harbor" incident in the next upcoming decades when the 9'11 go out of fashion.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

For an American, that wound is still open. It's fresh. I still cannot re-watch footage of the planes hitting the towers on that day. If I think about it too much I still get choked up. That day really affected me and my family and my friends, and even though I personally did not lose anyone close, it affected me in numerous other personal and significant ways that I am not going to talk about right now. I know it is the same way for almost all Americans. It still is a uniquely powerful day and a uniquely powerful memory for everyone--particularly in this country.

But don't you recognize the curious American exceptionalism? i don' talk about hypocrisy or the conflict of intuitive - that is real - compassion with its theoretical morally appropriate counter-model.
I mean how sensitive this event is for Americans to begin with. Because compared to what many nations suffered and at times still suffer, this is objectively nothing. Objectively meaning - damage measured in quantities or by proportion. For a terrorist attack, it is unique. ´Can't argue that. But the damage for a nation as big as the USA this is objectively irrelevant. Those strong feelings you describe seem - from the explained objective point of view - totally out of proportion. A lack of proportion is in itself of course very normal. We don't feel based on quantitative criteria. Yet, the scale of the divergence of proportions seems as unique to me as 9/11 was unique in the realm of terrorism.

 

[Crezth]

I mean how sensitive this event is for Americans to begin with. Because compared to what many nations suffered and at times still suffer, this is objectively nothing.

beep boop the empathy engine has determined that your grief is ILLOGICAL. please submit grief ticket to central bureau of grief processing and approval for a review of your grief request. until such time as grief has been admitted as objectively something, do not attempt to grieve subject "SEPTEMBER 11; TERRORIST ATTACK MODUS; NYC, USA"

 

[caketastydelish]

I am an American (and frankly proud to be one) but actually I think Holy King has a valid point.

I don't think Holy King hates americans. He is simply being critical of American foreign policy, and showing we have hurt others just as much as others have hurt us.

I also think whether a thread is "troll" or not depends on the context of where it was posted. If he posted this on an American right wing military forum, then yeah, troll thread. Most of the people here are pretty progressive and open minded, so I don't think it's a troll thread. Plenty of the posters here have agreed with him, me being one of them.

In fact, I think he gave us a very unique not to mention interesting perspective. If I'm ever asked to write about 9/11 in any of my classes for the rest of my academic life, I will make sure I write about this.

 

[illram]

But don't you recognize the curious American exceptionalism? i don' talk about hypocrisy or the conflict of intuitive - that is real - compassion with its theoretical morally appropriate counter-model.
I mean how sensitive this event is for Americans to begin with. Because compared to what many nations suffered and at times still suffer, this is objectively nothing. Objectively meaning - damage measured in quantities or by proportion. For a terrorist attack, it is unique. ´Can't argue that. But the damage for a nation as big as the USA this is objectively irrelevant. Those strong feelings you describe seem - from the explained objective point of view - totally out of proportion. A lack of proportion is in itself of course very normal. We don't feel based on quantitative criteria. Yet, the scale of the divergence of proportions seems as unique to me as 9/11 was unique in the realm of terrorism.

This isn't a comparative exercise or a logic thing. I am talking about emotional responses to tragedy. To say what happened on September 11 is "objectively nothing" or irrelevant (assuming I accept your premise, which I do not) is totally ignoring the obvious emotional component of this. I think you missed the point of what I said.

@Illram
I think I understand this feeling. And I sympathize. Would you say 9/11 has entered the American psyche the same way as Pearl Harbor did? As a real bolt from the blue. Or even, though not so similar, JFK?

There are some moments which go down as landmarks. And 9/11 must surely be one.

Even as a non-American, 9/11 is a very significant memory for me. (Though I'd remember when it happened, in the year, more easily if it was 11/9.)

Yes, I would say it is on those levels. I.e. a world-changing event, where there is a before such and such date and an after such and such date and the two worlds are totally different. To an American that is how that day feels. Everything before then was a different reality. That is the perception at least. And it is all about the perception.

 

[Joecoolyo]

You mean violence actually doesn't solve anything?

It sure worked for the Nassi problem in WWII.

/right in the Godwin

 

[jtb1127]

OK, I can accept that you do hear them discussed daily. I do not. Nor have I seen any mention, except by me, of the question here, far less any explanation.

Nor have I seen any explanation, worth considering, anywhere. I suppose you and I must inhabit different worlds. Let us agree to drop the subject, since it plainly irritates you.

The fact that you haven't heard any explanations doesn't mean that the question isn't being asked. Your perceptions aren't fact.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I also think whether a thread is "troll" or not depends on the context of where it was posted.

A lot of the context here comes from the lack of specificity from the OP and the fact that not only did the thread devolve into penis comparisons and 'America sux' comments from the beginning, but Holy King didn't even bother to input much past the OP.

He threw a rhetorical hand grenade into a crowded room and gtfo as fast as he could.

I'm glad that we have had interesting discourse in spite of the above, but let's face it, this was supposed to be a troll thread.

I also would like to formally apologize for my own sarcasm that led to Ziggy Stardust's comments which led to Illram weighing in. At the time, I was responding to what I percieved to be nonsense in kind and did not intend to offend or derail the conversation further. I've done my best to make something decent out of this thread and make lemonade from very painful lemons and engage posters from other countries and different points of view constructively.

 

[Angst]

I'll give this thread 9/11 for trolling.

Link to video.

 

[NovaKart]

I don't really get the whole, people suffered worse than you so you shouldn't feel bad. If someone's mother died would you say, well people lost their whole families in genocide, why are you crying about it. Why should you feel sad when people are starving in Africa.

 

[holy king]

Getting there by pretending to care about another tragic event in an intentional effort to provoke an emotional response by people who you know will be provoked (i.e. trolling) is different. It's juvenile.

pretending to?
you're a freaking mind reader now, arent you?

also, should i get angry everytime an american celebrates crushing the germans in ww2?
i mean people died in ww2. those were my family they crushed. boo-freaking-hoo.

 

[Borachio]

Spoiler :

Link to video.

Classic!

 

[del62]

pretending to?
you're a freaking mind reader now, arent you?

also, should i get angry everytime an american celebrates crushing the germans in ww2?
i mean people died in ww2. those were my family they crushed. boo-freaking-hoo.

hmmm, Austrians and Germans have murdered more people on the eleventh of september over the years than anyone else, you should have put that in your trolling thread.

But you are a complete pathetic small minded troll

 

[holy king]

this thread, my dear friend, was however never about murder, it was about the end of democratic socialism in chile.

 

[del62]

please dont call me your friend, I prefer my friends not to be small minded bigots

 

[holy king]

it's rather easy to push your buttons, innit? i mean i didnt even mean to...

 

[hobbsyoyo]

If you weren't pretending Holy King, where were you in the last 10 pages offering your input, trying to guide the conversation into something about Chile? As I said, you threw a rhetorical hand grenade into a crowded room and gtfo.

I'd like you and your brand of satire a lot more if you would drop the pretenses and admit guilt on this. It won't change anything, the rest of us took the conversation where we wanted it to go, not where you intended. You did get your troll points in through the OP and other posters' penis comments. So call it a day, eh?