Russia a democracy after all - sort of

But no they are reporting violent riots in moscow tuesday nite here
There are no riots, only protests (afaik, most are sanctioned by government) which are far less violent than Occupy Wall Street ones or than compared to those that took place in Moscow in recent years. If "violent" the right word at all. Stupid — yes.
 
There are no riots, only protests (afaik, most are sanctioned by government) which are far less violent than Occupy Wall Street ones or than compared to those that took place in Moscow in recent years. If "violent" the right word at all. Stupid — yes.

Yeah well, it only takes a few shouts for things to turn into "violent" according to the/our media... sells better/gets more viewers I guess.
 
As they say on the forums here there's nothing on our TV about those protests (though, I didn't check, and they might show some calm communist public :))

That's the guy, Navalny, who is the main agitator against the Unified Russia party. He is a blogger and has a portal where they collect reports about corruption of authorities, especially UR ones:


Link to video.

Some people, including those who voted for opposition parties, perceive him as provocateur, one of those who tries to destabilise the country, and as a guy sponsored by the U.S. As one of those people I'm personally happy that they arrested him and consider this right and within the laws.

I do not like how the elections has passed though. There are many videos of violations, and the % results look unrealistic. I could believe that UR would got the majority anyway. Though, communists had a great support, even people of liberal, anti-soviet/communist views voted for them this time. Because, generally, Russians have got tired of the UR and there's a looot of agitation and bias against it, too, while the communist party looks solid compared to the rest opposition. I voted for communists, because I'm pro-Soviet and pro-socialist, but the reason I've even decided to vote this time was that 1) There's a strong negative attitude to UR these last years, 2) There are protests and the Wall Street movement all over the Western countries, therefore, I thought that this is just the right moment to vote for socialists here.

The funniest video of a man's balls being grabbed:


Link to video.
 
Some people, including those who voted for opposition parties, perceive him as provocateur, one of those who tries to destabilise the country, and as a guy sponsored by the U.S. As one of those people I'm personally happy that they arrested him and consider this right and within the laws.
So instead of being glad that someone deals with corruption, you are glad that he gets locked away because he "destabilizes" the country? What he destabilizes are the corrupt structures of the country! But yes, that's surely bad. The system must be stable after all! Even if it sucks... And why on earth does the US have to be involved? Are Russians not supposed to have a moral backbone of their own?
With such attitudes I am not sure the Russian people deserve better. It is just a shame for those who know better but get no chance - for instance by being arrested.
edit: Scrap that deserving-part. I guess your media is to blame...
 
So instead of being glad that someone deals with corruption, you are glad that he gets locked away because he "destabilizes" the country? What he destabilizes are the corrupt structures of the country! But yes, that's surely bad. The system must be stable after all! Even if it sucks... And why on earth does the US have to be involved? Are Russians not supposed to have a moral backbone of their own?
With such attitudes I am not sure the Russian people deserve better. It is just a shame for those who know better but get no chance - for instance by being arrested.
edit: Scrap that deserving-part. I guess your media is to blame...

heheh I am with you on this one!
But yeah the media has a HUGE influence.
Thats something I've learned in the aftermath of the first revolution in Egypt. The SCAF(the military council) used the national tv outlets to fill egyptians with lies that many many many believed just as the former regime did.
Like the assault on the christian demonstrators infront of the national tv building(masperro) recently. Were the national tv was broadcasting stuff like: They are traitors and foreaign backed and putting the country at jeopardy. every true egyptian should come to the street and try and fight them....
Which resulted in killings and assaults on the christians...

Not sectarian violence but violence based on the idea that those people were threatening the country.
But ofcourse here in the west we spin it off as sectarian violence.

I know its off topic but its todo with media influence....
 
So instead of being glad that someone deals with corruption, you are glad that he gets locked away because he "destabilizes" the country?
Well, he should not have violated laws doing this. And he acted very stupid on the streets. Though, I don't think he would be locked or something, and they'll let him go after 15 days, which is within the law...

What he destabilizes are the corrupt structures of the country! But yes, that's surely bad. The system must be stable after all! Even if it sucks...
Those structures are people themselves, and majority doesn't won't to admit this fact, it is much easier to blame the people in power (who are the same) for a common person, than to evaluate his daily actions and their consenquences. After this new "democracy" idea settled in Russia the majority here developed the habbit of shifting responsibilities on social institutions: authorities, police, companies. With every year the habbit grew and grew. And Navalny is the guy who exploits this habbit to his own needs and in the worst way.

And why on earth does the US have to be involved?
Because they are involved, American organizations support and sponsor liberal opposition and scandalist human rights activists.

With such attitudes I am not sure the Russian people deserve better. It is just a shame for those who know better but get no chance - for instance by being arrested.
edit: Scrap that deserving-part. I guess your media is to blame...
Well, I agree that people when they are stupid deserve the bad things they get because of their stupidity. And that is true for Russian society of these days. Media consists of people too, and people influence it by choosing what to watch, and the journalists are unimaginably ignorant.
 
Those structures are people themselves, and majority doesn't won't to admit this fact, it is much easier to blame the people in power (who are the same) for a common person, than to evaluate his daily actions and their consenquences. After this new "democracy" idea settled in Russia the majority here developed the habbit of shifting responsibilities on social institutes: authorities, police, companies. With every year the habbit grew and grew. And Navalny is the guy who exploits this habbit to his own needs and in the worst way.

Can you please repeat that:

After the Soviet Union ended the majority of Russians developed the habit of shifting responsibilities on social institutions? :goodjob:
 
Can you please repeat that:

After the Soviet Union ended the majority of Russians developed the habit of shifting responsibilities on social institutions? :goodjob:

Yes, exactly, because:

1. There was very different mentality and ideology in Soviet times, and people felt responsible for those structures and the society as a whole to work right.
2. Perestroyka has changed this mentality, and it is very easy to become irresponsible and unprincipled in an ex-socialist country where the values have suddenly changed to personal gain and freedoms pushing.
 
In Russia, of all countries, I would expect by not that there would be a healthy skepticism of the media, especially the big media.

Anyway, I suspect that if the communists actually won an election pretty soon Putin would announce a new-found fondness for communism and remain on top anyway!
 
Sweet Jesus how much are non-stops to Moscow?
 
The SCAF(the military council) used the national tv outlets to fill egyptians with lies that many many many believed just as the former regime did.
Like the assault on the christian demonstrators infront of the national tv building(masperro) recently. Were the national tv was broadcasting stuff like: They are traitors and foreaign backed and putting the country at jeopardy. every true egyptian should come to the street and try and fight them....
Which resulted in killings and assaults on the christians...
Wait... what? The national TV actually fueled those happenings? Sorry for asking, but are you sure? Is that for real?
In the German media I in deed got the picture that some bigoted Egyptians are violent and the SCAF does their best to contain them.... If true, what you wrote is just as insightful as sickening. And why the hell would the German media not report on that I wonder? It can't be hard to find out if the main TV station (which I assume the national TV is) is responsible. And the connection to the SCAF is even more obvious (naturally they have a grip on national TV as in every "respectable" authoritarian state).
Well, he should not have violated laws doing this. And he acted very stupid on the streets. Though, I don't think he would be locked or something, and they let him go after 15 days, which is within the law...
So he didn't actually violate any laws? Maybe the government is just trying to exercise some pressure because he has grown to be a real annoyance for those in charge (but not with the common good in mind). Would be quit a standard practice for authoritarian governments.
What where the charges to begin with?
Those structures are people themselves, and majority doesn't won't to admit this fact, it is much easier to blame the people in power (who are the same) for a common person, than to evaluate his daily actions and their consenquences.
Sure, the people themselves aren't angels. All are just human. And no one is free of responsibility. Does this make it any less important to watch the state forces in a critical manner and expose their misdoings and to step up against it? Not if you want to live in a functional democracy.
Because they are involved, American organizations support and sponsor liberal opposition and scandalist human rights activists.
You know, portraying people critical of the state as enemies of the state, best sponsored by an outside hostilely viewed force, is the oldest trick of the world. And it is done all over the world. Even America itself does it, for instance by portraying people who speak up against wars as "unpatriotic". You should be very careful about such allegations.
But let's just assume our guy is sponsored by American organizations. So freaking what? Shouldn't you be thankful to foreign organizations who support forces in your country which try to bring a change for the better by exposing corruption? I sure would.
 
I was happy to see that Putin's Party (that's what United Russia is) may get less than 50% of the votes. Then I saw who the other main parties are: communists and racists. It's more depressing than Brazilian politics.
Well, it was already said several times here that democratic Russia (i.e. when people define where country should go to) would be disliked even more than authoritarian one.
 
So he didn't actually violate any laws? Maybe the government is just trying to exercise some pressure because he has grown to be a real annoyance for those in charge (but not with the common good in mind). Would be quit a standard practice for authoritarian governments.
Maybe you are just too paranoid?

What where the charges to begin with?
The official, afaik is violation of the rules of organization and/or carrying out of a demonstration, a procession, blahblahblah, or a picket.

And what he did wrong from my point of view is: public nuisance, direct call for authorities overthrow, defamation, rampaging.

Does this make it any less important to watch the state forces in a critical manner and expose their misdoings and to step up against it?
That's what the author of the second video at #63 post is doing. And most people here except maybe some fanatical UR proponents would agree that he's doing the right thing. Which is not the case with Navalny.

Though I can understand you: there are no criminals or wrong-doers in Russia until they are part of its authorities and especially among opposition to those authorities, those latter are all saint and honest. My foot!

But let's just assume our guy is sponsored by American organizations. So freaking what? Shouldn't you be thankful to foreign organizations who support forces in your country which try to bring a change for the better by exposing corruption? I sure would.
Divide et impera. I sure would too... if I were an idiot of naivety or a hater of my own country.

You know, portraying people critical of the state as enemies of the state, best sponsored by an outside hostilely viewed force, is the oldest trick of the world.
If any of those people appeared in the U.S. with the same things they say here, they'd be in jail next day for 150 years. Russia has no privilege to solve such inner matters by itself, because even the man who prepared armed coup, Khodorkovsky, is strongly supported and advocated by the West, which means constant political and media pressing, not too mention terrorists and mafia corruptionists sitting in London as "political asylum".
 
Seems like fraud was quite widespread indeed.

The Economist said:
YESTERDAY'S parliamentary poll in Russia was always going to be more a referendum on Vladimir Putin and the ruling United Russia party than a real election. The genuine opposition was barred from taking part long before polling day; television, which remains the main source of news and views for most of the country, has been working at full propaganda throttle; and governors and mayors across Russia were given specific targets for United Russia's voting figures and told to meet them.

Yet United Russia won just under 50% of the vote, down from 64% in 2007. It will enjoy a simple majority in parliament but no longer the two-thirds it needs to alter the constitution. Dmitry Medvedev, Russia’s president, who was placed at the top of United Russia’s electoral list, tried to put a brave face on the result. Boris Gryzlov, the speaker of parliament and United Russia's chairman, argued that the party put in a strong performance compared with other European ruling parties.

That smacked of desperation, given that Russia’s voting procedure bears little resemblance to genuine elections. Most analysts say that the real lesson of yesterday's poll is that Mr Putin's regime is starting to lose legitimacy among its core voters, particularly in large cities.

This explains the Kremlin’s hysterical behaviour towards election monitors. The most important of these, Golos (Voice, or Vote), was harassed and smeared by one of Russia's main television channels after Mr Putin likened its observers, who receive foreign grants, to Judas. What irritated the authorities most, however, was an interactive map created by Golos that allowed people across Russia to report election abuses. On Saturday this earned Golos a $1,000 fine from a Moscow court.

Yesterday various websites, including Golos's and that of LiveJournal, a popular social network, were brought down by massive cyber-attacks. Some were brought back online after polling closed; others remain down. But the authorities could do little to stop videos of ballot-box stuffing being posted on YouTube and Facebook.

The irony is that United Russia could probably have won 45% of the vote anyway (although not in Moscow and St Petersburg). Opinion pollsters say that across the country this kind of rigging rarely changes the outcome by much more than 5%.

The damage to the Kremlin's legitimacy is considerably higher, particularly in Moscow, traditionally a weak spot for United Russia, and where the regime seemed to concentrate most of its efforts yesterday. Throughout the day young people in identical white coats were ferried between polling stations—some voting more than a dozen times, according to Russian journalists. I saw several organised groups casting ballots in different polling stations with distant voting permits.

Despite this, in Moscow at 6pm—two hours before voting closed—United Russia had polled only 27.5%, according to pro-Kremlin pollsters. Its final result, announced after a long delay, was 46.5%. Nowhere else in Russia was the discrepancy between exit polls and the result as high.

In St Petersburg, Mr Putin’s home town, United Russia got only 34% of the vote. This despite election-day behaviour that Sergei Mironov, leader of the Just Russia party, denounced as "lawlessness".

The Kremlin initially set up Just Russia as a clone of United Russia, but then dumped it publicly. Partly as a result the party performed strongly yesterday, winning 24.5% of the vote. This was almost double its achievement in 2007, when it was seen as a leg of the Kremlin. Yet even before the counting was complete Mr Mironov said he “did not rule out” a coalition with United Russia.

The absurdity of the rigging became clear as results came in. In some regions the sum of votes cast for all parties exceeded 140%. In Chechnya, ruled by Ramzan Kadyrov, a Kremlin-friendly strongman, United Russia’s result was 99.5%. A similar result was achieved in a Moscow psychiatric hospital.

The ballot is likely to strengthen the image of United Russia as a party of "thieves and crooks", as it is known to many Russians. But it could also fan anti-Caucasus sentiment, to potentially explosive effect. In a blog post Alexei Navalny, a popular Russian blogger with a strong nationalist tint, said that yesterday's election showed that "Putin is the president of Chechnya, Ingushetia and Dagestan—but not Russia".

Why did United Russia perform so dismally? As Alexander Oslon, a pollster who advises the Kremlin, says, it is partly the result of the job swap announced in September between Mr Medvedev and Mr Putin, who will return to the presidency next March. “If a captain of your football team says there is someone stronger than him, your confidence in the team weakens,” he said.

But many political observers say this is just a symptom of the regime's loss of legitimacy. “They cannot allow genuine competition because they are scared of losing power,” comments Dmitry Oreshkin, a political analyst. The next step could be purges within United Russia; Mr Gryzlov could be the first to go, according to Ekho Moskvy, a radio station.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2011/12/russias-election
 
Mr Putin's regime


facepalm.gif
 
So instead of being glad that someone deals with corruption, you are glad that he gets locked away because he "destabilizes" the country? What he destabilizes are the corrupt structures of the country! But yes, that's surely bad. The system must be stable after all! Even if it sucks... And why on earth does the US have to be involved? Are Russians not supposed to have a moral backbone of their own?
With such attitudes I am not sure the Russian people deserve better. It is just a shame for those who know better but get no chance - for instance by being arrested.
edit: Scrap that deserving-part. I guess your media is to blame...

I am glad that its not only me who see it. I wouldnt be taken serious because my location.

Aleksey has true that its not only about official structures or their control of media but also about whole postcommunist society -here we also deal with it everyday. Some countries survived "destabilisation" and live in (relative) freedom, but countries like Russia or Ukraine resignated on it rather soon. They have never made it to freedom or democracy part, so they allways interpret it as destabilisation and evil American conspiracy.
 
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