Russia a democracy after all - sort of

[Terxpahseyton]

Here is a German article of the magazine Der Spiegel which clearly states so. Spiegel being a major news magazine and the article being so sure of itself, I bought it without hesitation. And I also met that version of history again and when reading "Fall of Giants" by Ken Follett, which yes is not a work of history but historic fiction, it nevertheless reaffirmed my impression that Germany fnancing Lenin was a fact.
However, I am now not so sure anymore after doing a little googling myself and meeting your skepticism.

 

[luiz]

What I'm mostly seeing here is anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, so you may want to provide a more solid reference than that.

Check out Der Spiegel's "The bought Revolution: How emperor Willhem II financed Lenin's October Revolution".

I can't find the link now, but I'm sure someone will.

Edit: Sill beat me to it!

 

[uppi]

They've also learned the lesson of hiring foxy news anchors.

Yeah, powering down the "adding up percentages" section of half the audience's brain goes a long way in the election aftermath.

 

[red_elk]

Come on, don't go there. I know of no example were unrigged elections were commonly reported as rigged because the results weren't liked.

How can you know such examples, if all the information what you have are reports from Western media? You just assume they are correct and objective.
I've never heard of any elections where results were not "right" from Western point of view, to be reported as fair.

I would assume so, too, but I think in this instance he would be mistaken. Google "Lenin financed by Germany" if you like, and u'll find plenty. I believe it is a relatively new discovery, so maybe that is why Cheezy isn't aware of it so far.

No, this discovery is not new. I'm sure any expert on that time period know about it and can comment your statement.

 

[Traitorfish]

No, this discovery is not new. I'm sure any expert on that time period know about it and can comment your statement.

Really? I read Wade's Russian Revolution, 1917 recently, which is an assigned text on many university courses, and he doesn't mention it once.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

How can you know such examples, if all the information what you have are reports from Western media? You just assume they are correct and objective.

No, I don't assume them to be objective and I don't always assume them to be correct.
But you are dodging the real question here. An actual example of your allegation. Otherwise, the one who just assumes stuff are you.

 

[red_elk]

Really? I read Wade's Russian Revolution, 1917 recently, which is an assigned text on many university courses, and he doesn't mention it once.

If I remember correctly, I heard this hypothesis from different popular sources in Russia a while ago. The fact that you didn't find it in academic work means that ... this information must be carefully analyzed before accepting.

 

[red_elk]

No, I don't assume them to be objective and I don't always assume them to be correct. But you are dodging the real question here. An actual example of your allegation. Otherwise, the one who just assumes stuff are you.

Which question, sorry?
I didn't see you was asking anything.
You said that you don't know examples of not rigged elections, reported as rigged because of their results. Of course you don't, all you know is how they were reported in your media.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Which question, sorry?
I didn't see you was asking anything.
You said that you don't know examples of not rigged elections, reported as rigged because of their results. Of course you don't, all you know is how they were reported in your media.

So let my try again in a different manner:
Do you know of an actual case where Western media reported a non-rigged election as rigged?
And to make the importance of this question clear again: If not, you are doing little more than spinning conspiracy theories fitting to your world view. Which is fun, but promises little gain in portraying reality.

 

[luiz]

Really? I read Wade's Russian Revolution, 1917 recently, which is an assigned text on many university courses, and he doesn't mention it once.

Dmitiri Volkogonov (former Soviet general, former head of the History Department of the Soviet Army), mentions this issue explicitly on his The Seven Leaders of the Soviet Empire. I suppose this has been known since the opening of the Moscow files.

But really, the only people who should have their opinion of Lenin changed by this revelation are Russian Nationalists. Nearly every non-communist already had very negative opinions on the man, for his dictatorial manners, orders of mass executions, and essential amorality. This does not change my view of him at all, for example. As for marxist-leninist communists, I don't see why they should care too much either. So Lenin took German gold to advance the cause of the Russian proletariat, big deal, they would do it all over again. The enemy of your enemy and all that. Now, Russian nationalists really do have reason to be upset, especially if they link the German financing with the generous terms of Brest-Litovsk..

 

[red_elk]

So let my try again in a different manner:
Do you know of an actual case where Western media reported a non-rigged election as rigged?
And to make the importance of this question clear again: If not, you are doing little more than spinning conspiracy theories fitting to your world view. Which is fun, but promises little gain in portraying reality.

I'm not a God, I can't know such examples with 100% accuracy.
What I can say for sure is, for example, that election in Belarussia will always be reported as rigged, provided Lukashenko is elected. Elections in Ukraine will be reported as rigged if any pro-Russian candidate win them, but not if Yuschenko wins. Future elections in Russia will be reported as rigged if Putin or Zyuganov win them, but not if any pro-Western candidate will be elected. Can continue this pattern with Georgia, Kazakhstan, etc.

Edit: If you know counterexamples for this pattern, you are free to provide them.

 

[GamezRule]

I still say they should just make Putin dictator and get on with it.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

red_elk... This "seeing of patterns" and drawing conclusions by these patterns which are not a reflection of actual fact but of your world view is exactly what conspiracy theories are made of. I don't expect you to be God and to know everything. But I expect you to base such a grave allegation as that Western media basically frames the validity of elections according to how pro-West candidates are on something solid. Like you would need to name specific rigged elections not reported as rigged because the guy was Pro-West or the counterpart to that.

Edit: If you know counterexamples for this pattern, you are free to provide them.

The Ukraine elections in 2010 weren't reported as rigged from what I remember, even though the pro-Russian candidate won. What was reported were suspicion within the nation of Ukraine itself about election fraud. But that turned out to be false.
Here is a quote form the wiki article on the election

According to all international organizations observing the election allegations of electoral fraud in relation to the first round ballot had been unfounded, they declared that the conduct of the elections was within internationally recognized democratic standards and a testament to the will of the people of Ukraine.

In the end Western media accepted that the Ukrainians just choose the Pro-Russia guy.
Additionally, I read multiple times in Western media that also without the election fraud in Russia UR would have won this election, just with a few percents less, so without an absolute majority. Western media accepts that the Russian people have given UD most of their votes. Still there was fraud.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Additionally, I read multiple times in Western media that also without the election fraud in Russia UR would have won this election, just with a few percents less, so without an absolute majority. Western media accepts that the Russian people have given UD most of their votes. Still there was fraud.

And if it were in the hands of one man or at least one solid power, would they make such obviously stupid thing? No. That's a corruption of all levels summarized up in 150% of votes.

 

[red_elk]

red_elk... This "seeing of patterns" and drawing conclusions by these patterns which are not a reflection of actual fact but of your world view is exactly what conspiracy theories are made of. I don't expect you to be God and to know everything. But I expect you to base such a grave allegation as that Western media basically frames the validity of elections according to how pro-West candidates are on something solid.

My "grave allegation" and base for "conspiracy theory" is the statement that Western mass media favors pro-Western candidates more than pro-Russian. This cannot be true, right?

Like you would need to name specific rigged elections not reported as rigged because the guy was Pro-West or the counterpart to that.

Elections of 2004 in Ukraine, first and second tours.

The Ukraine elections in 2010 weren't reported as rigged from what I remember, even though the pro-Russian candidate won. What was reported were suspicion within the nation of Ukraine itself about election fraud. But that turned out to be false.
Here is a quote form the wiki article on the election. In the end Western media accepted that the Ukrainians just choose the Pro-Russia guy.

There was no alternative, both candidates were similarly "undemocratic". If Yuschenko or other orange candidate participated, the results would be different.

 

[Lone Wolf]

But really, the only people who should have their opinion of Lenin changed by this revelation are Russian Nationalists.

Most Russian Nationalists (except those of openly Communist persuasion) don't like Lenin that much. Lenin was too internationalist, and his atheism was too fervent and extreme. Stalin, on the other hand...

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I would assume so, too, but I think in this instance he would be mistaken. Google "Lenin financed by Germany" if you like, and u'll find plenty. I believe it is a relatively new discovery, so maybe that is why Cheezy isn't aware of it so far.

There are an infinite number of slanderous nonsense theories that have been circulating about the USSR for nearly as long as it has been around. Doesn't make them true. Google Search results and articles in popular magazines (would you believe one about USSR in The Economist?) don't exactly constitute validity.

Really? I read Wade's Russian Revolution, 1917 recently, which is an assigned text on many university courses, and he doesn't mention it once.

I've read several texts on the Revolution and Civil War and I've seen it before. It mostly comes up in authors who have an axe to grind, like Richard Pipes and Orlando Figes.

If I remember correctly, I heard this hypothesis from different popular sources in Russia a while ago. The fact that you didn't find it in academic work means that ... this information must be carefully analyzed before accepting.

As I said before, it's been around since it allegedly happened. Trotsky mentions the two of them addressing it to the Soviet in his History of the Russian Revolution.

But really, the only people who should have their opinion of Lenin changed by this revelation are Russian Nationalists. Nearly every non-communist already had very negative opinions on the man, for his dictatorial manners, orders of mass executions, and essential amorality. This does not change my view of him at all, for example. As for marxist-leninist communists, I don't see why they should care too much either. So Lenin took German gold to advance the cause of the Russian proletariat, big deal, they would do it all over again. The enemy of your enemy and all that. Now, Russian nationalists really do have reason to be upset, especially if they link the German financing with the generous terms of Brest-Litovsk..

The line would be "they will sell us the rope by which they will themselves be hanged," and you're quite right, I wouldn't care even if he did get financed. But that wouldn't make them German agents provocateur or fifth columnists, even if the entire finances of the Social-Democratic Party of Russia were supported by the Kaiser, which given their rather pathetic equipment and conditions, they most certainly were not.

 

[Winner]

Come on Russians, step up the protests, make the regime anxious if nothing else.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Putin and Medvedev are anxious enough, they comment the situation sequentially. There was even some Czech politician among them yesterday who said something like "blah-blah-blah, I know how's that when someone interfere to the inner politics of a country from the outside, so I'll say that and that, blah-blah-blah"...

 

[Rulle_Kebab]

Huge demonstrations expected tomorrow!!! From Kaliningrad in the west to Vladivostok on the Pacific coast. Some 60.000 has pledged to show up in Moscow!
Good news for once!
Source: Reuters