[RD] Russia Invades Ukraine: The 7th Thread Itch; scratch it here!

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On the contrary, it is very easy to imagine France trying to do stuff in Africa, and Russia having its own military assets nearby. Frankafrique is a thing, as are Russian military groups in some of those countries.

indeed, they do use them against France.


On April 22, 2022, the French military released satellite imagery and drone footage documenting an attempt by Russian Wagner Group mercenaries to stage evidence of French atrocities near an army base in Gossi, in northern Mali. The footage showed Wagner troops arriving at the base and arranging corpses in shallow mass graves to falsify evidence of mass killings by French forces.
 
it is very easy to imagine France trying to do stuff in Africa
Still can't imagine territorial expansion and ethnic purges done by France in Africa the way Russia currently does. Not saying it didn't happen in the past.

Frankafrique is a thing
Except that in recent years France is effectively retreating from Africa while countries like China and Russia are hard at work to fill the power vacuum.
 
It's not voluntarily retreating, this isn't decolonization. Likewise, those other countries are why it was made to retreat - and obviously are there for their own imperialistic reasons.
Though at least China doesn't install armies nor attack the native populations.
As to the point about annexing stuff, my own post was strictly about nations not liking spying on their forces and messing with what they try to do (which even by the example I gave you can tell wasn't presented as noble).
 
Russian sources report loss of another A-50 AWACS plane.


Ukraine's Air Force claim the kill

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If you repeat to somebody a hundred times, that he and his nation are scum of the Earth, he will think worse about you, not himself. Don't know if it counts as being proud.

And you believe there's nothing?

I think you're confusing two things. This thread is about the worst war Europe has suffered since WW2 and it was caused by Russia. Obviously the tone of the comments discussing Russia's actions will be negative. Still, I haven't seen people calling Russians the scum of the Earth. That might be your own mental exaggeration, but feel free to share a link. Make a thread about Russia's literature or the diversity of its people and tradition, and the tone will be much more positive. I personally love Russian culture and had dreams of traveling around the country.

What you seem to also be confusing is what people wish for Russia and its people. Despite the occasional vitriol from angry Ukrainians and pro-Ukrainians (often behind the anonymity of the Internet), most people don't wish for the destruction of Russia. We just wish it would leave Ukraine and its neighbors alone. Which I think is a rather fair and reasonable demand. Currently there is only one country requesting the subjugation of the other and gloating repeatedly about depopulating it. It would be nice to go back to the times when there were growing economical ties and prospects for a constructive relationship (as illusory as that turned out to be) with a prosperous Russia. But currently, unfortunately, to many it seems like the only way for this to happen is for bad things to happen to Russia in the battlefield or on the home front. (So don't be surprised if they're celebrated.) As occurred many times in history, when an aggressive expansionist regime rose to power, only to be defeated and replaced by a more moderate one. Obviously a change of regime can be scary, the new one can be much better (see Japan or Germany post-WW2) or significantly worse (see the Yelstin years and the scars it left).

If anyone is still surprised why most of the Russians support Putin and disdain the West and Ukraine, one of the reasons is dehumanization like this.

I understand that the idiots who write these things are (hopefully) a minority in Europe and America. But they are vocal and numerous enough so that Russian media doesn't even need to invent anything, simply show this to ordinary folks.

You do realize you're doing exactly what you're criticizing? You're justifiably angry at posters making broad negative generalizations about the Russian people. But then you defend Russians' disdain for the West and Ukraine based on what you admit is a minority of people making angry posts online. I only wish the best for Russians. But I don't think this war is any good for them, it's massive waste of lives and money. I haven't yet seen a serious analysis explaining how this war is good for the Russian people, but please send a link if you know of one. I'd be curious.

Of course, there's a special category of people, the ones supporting the invasion. I think you said you were against it? So I don't know why you would feel concerned by these criticisms. But it is very hard to respect people supporting such acts of violence and expansionism. Whether they're Russian, or American, or French, or whatever (so please Kyriakos spare us the whataboutism and thread derailment). They're the kind of people that make life on this planet more sad and ugly. I rarely wish ill on someone. But for people who support launching such a war, I just wish they could experience the most terrible suffering war has to offer. Maybe it would make them reconsider their positions.

But for Russians in general, I just wish the best, so do most of my fellow countrymen. And I have no illusion. If I were Russian, I would probably be part of the apathetic ones. Maybe slightly criticizing the war and the regime in private. But never with the courage to protest it publically. Luckily there are people in this world much more courageous than me.

https://www.rfi.fr/en/international...aine-a-russian-surgeon-atones-for-putin-s-war

In Ukraine, a Russian surgeon atones for Putin's war​


Kyiv (Ukraine) (AFP) – Andrei Volna had long started losing faith in his homeland before Russian tanks entered Ukraine.


Issued on: 05/02/2024 - 07:46Modified: 05/02/2024 - 07:44

4 min

[IMG alt="President Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine in February 2022 sparked an exodus from the country of Russians"]https://s.rfi.fr/media/display/417c...2f3f38dd3eda6975684008294e01e6992fe.jpg[/IMG] President Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine in February 2022 sparked an exodus from the country of Russians © Sergei SUPINSKY / AFP



That was when the Russian surgeon's disillusionment passed the point of no return and he decided to flee.
Waiting in a line of cars at the border with Estonia, the 61-year-old left behind a comfortable life in Moscow -- with his wife and three children in tow -- determined to use his medical skills to help Ukrainians.
"It's a moral, ethical choice, above all. We want as much as possible to do our part to make Ukraine win more quickly," the orthopaedic surgeon told AFP in a military hospital in Kyiv.
"And we will stop living this war only when the war ends on Ukraine's terms," the bespectacled, grey-haired doctor in blue scrubs said.
President Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine in February 2022 sparked an exodus from the country of Russians fearing repression and then, later, conscription.
A handful like Volna, who traces his family roots to Ukraine, have ended up fighting against Russian forces on the front line or aiding Kyiv's war effort however they can.

'Devil's disco' missile barrage​

Volna first arrived in Kyiv last September after securing residency in EU and NATO state Estonia, and then permission to volunteer in Kyiv.
He teared up as he recounted witnessing a military funeral procession hours after crossing the border, realising his country "killed that young guy".

[IMG alt="Andrei Volna likened a Russian missile attack during his first night in Kyiv to a 'devil's disco'"]https://s.rfi.fr/media/display/3fde...7df24a7b00153eb454c84b955ab39618c41.jpg[/IMG] Andrei Volna likened a Russian missile attack during his first night in Kyiv to a 'devil's disco' © Vadym Bielikov / AFP
And that night, air raid sirens echoed over Kyiv during a Russian missile barrage. Volna likened the thundering blasts and flashes through the windows to a "devil's disco".
"Since my first night in Kyiv, I understood what this war is here. The Russians showed me," he told AFP.
His life back home reflected the political upheavals that culminated in the invasion, and his opposition to the Kremlin began long before the war.
He said he was pressured into leaving a job at a clinic in 2016 for speaking out publicly against Russia's annexation of Crimea two years earlier.
He later helped allies of Alexei Navalny establish that the opposition leader was poisoned with Novichok nerve agent in 2020, although he does not count himself among Navalny's supporters.
When Navalny began a hunger strike after being detained on old fraud charges, Volna joined a chorus of medical professionals concerned for his health.

[IMG alt="The veteran surgeon was a long-time critic of the Kremlin before Russia invaded Ukraine"]https://s.rfi.fr/media/display/4067...bfbaee00dcc48dbe8e74417a82d4e465d34.jpg[/IMG] The veteran surgeon was a long-time critic of the Kremlin before Russia invaded Ukraine © Sergei SUPINSKY / AFP
His decision to ultimately leave Moscow was spurred by tips from patients linked to the judiciary and security services that the authorities were preparing a case against him under new laws banning criticism of the war.
Now in Kyiv, he mainly treats soldiers with fractures from massive blasts -- injuries that recall his early career in the Siberian region of Kemerovo where many of his patients were miners injured by gas explosions underground.
He mused over whether that experience was part of a higher power's plan "so that during this war I could support my Ukrainian colleagues and my Ukrainian patients. I don't know."

Putin has 'no empathy'​

Volna's vocal political stance and respect among peers has helped him win the confidence of his patients, despite his nationality.
A 35-year-old Ukrainian soldier called Mykola, whose leg was torn up during Russia's devastating siege of the port city of Mariupol, said he had faith both in Volna's loyalties and expertise.
"If I didn't trust him, I wouldn't be here," Mykola told AFP, lying in a stale ward smelling of industrial cleaner, with other wounded servicemen missing limbs.
Petro Nikitin, the head of the trauma department, has been friends with Volna for over a decade and helped him get permission to work in Ukraine after war broke out.
"The first time he came in, he went straight to the operating room," Nikitin, 61, told AFP.
Volna said he is bewildered by the Russian president's decision to unleash the destructive conflict, whose victims he is now trying to save.

[IMG alt="Andrei Volna has vowed never to return to Russia"]https://s.rfi.fr/media/display/40db...59a64105454e455baaf45b766586e010090.jpg[/IMG] Andrei Volna has vowed never to return to Russia © Sergei SUPINSKY / AFP
"I don't understand Putin. He has absolutely no empathy," the surgeon said.
But he said Russians were collectively responsible for their failure to stop the former KGB agent on his march to war, a burden he said he would carry "for the rest of my life".
"I lived in Russia for 59 years. I did everything I could for Russia," he said.
"I thought about a European path for Russia but Russia decided to take a fascist path. It's not for me. It's not for my family."
 
Yup the videos were awful. The drone shots made it uncanny, it looked like an RTS game. So many lives lost for nothing.

That's the part I don't get. I get that some Russians don't care about Ukrainian lives. Brainwashed Russians because they believe that the deaths and suffering inflicted upon Ukraine are deserved, or worth it for some greater goals. And the apolitical ones because they just can't be bothered to care.
But how can they care so little about sending their own countrymen to go die in the mud of Ukraine. Imagine some poor blokes from Tuva having to go crawl in miserable trenches almost halfway across the globe from his home. What is he fighting for? What's in it for him? We'll never get a good faith answer to these questions from the people that support sending them to the meat grinder. I guess the Tuvans get a paycheck in the best case. At worst, PTSD with a few missing limbs. Or a quick death, which is not that bad comparatively speaking.

As disgusting and pointless as American foreign interventions were during the Bush years, at least it made sense how they could be tolerated by a minimally complacent population. With total superiority in armament, the casualties for Americans were low. And the material and financial resources "invested" (wasted might be a better word) were small proportionally speaking if we compare them to Russia's current folly in Ukraine.

But I guess that, purely from a propaganda point of view, there can be some advantage to fighting a costly war. It is costly because the enemy is strong. And then the war can be presented as a righteous crusade to defend against this powerful foe that tries to destroy Russia. That's why many Russian propagandists go to great lengths to depict this is as a war with NATO. I don't follow Russian sources much anymore as it got repetitive. But initially I remember some being very brazen in their ludicrous assertions, talking about the bombing of undercover NATO brigades and command centers in Ukraine. Anyway, for propaganda purposes this is certainly better than fighting a weak and almost invisible enemy as the US did in its counterinsurgency operations, where every loss was demoralizing and there was no clear objective or end in sight.

I don't think there's any reason to doubt the "good faith" of the answer we've gotten from red_elk, which is to destroy the "Kiev regime" and save the people of Donbass from "genocide." This explanation is basically ludicrous but it seems to be sincerely believed.

Of course, the evident Russian tolerance for this level of losses gives Russia a kind of strategic resilience that the US certainly does not have, unless enough of the population is convinced the war is existential (which is why Bush 2 had to lie about Iraq having nukes to get the public to support invading it).

And you believe there's nothing?

With regard to the invasion of Ukraine I do believe Russia has much to be ashamed of and nothing to be proud of.
 
Whether they're Russian, or American, or French, or whatever (so please Kyriakos spare us the whataboutism and thread derailment).

One information warfare issue for the West is that its governments are in lockstep giving material and political support to Israel, which is doing exactly the same things in Gaza that Russia is doing in Ukraine (even to the point that both countries claim, rather nonsensically, to be "fighting Nazis"). This situation makes it much easier to conclude the issue in Ukraine is animosity toward Russia specifically rather than principled opposition to aggressive war and genocidal violence.
 
Well, it's not ludicrous, persay, is it? No surprise Prigozhin was dead shortly after saying the quiet part out loud on the Donbass. I think that's one of the "stupid games with stupid prizes" to play.

Point taken on Israel. But they don't aim ICBMs at us, to the best of our knowledge. That might have something to do with it.
 
Ukraine's Air Force claim the kill

View attachment 685175

Report from UA Military Intelligence Directorate (GUR):

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💥 Minus one A-50U: GUR and the Air Force shot down another Russian plane

🤝 As a result of a joint operation of the Main Intelligence Directorate of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine and the Air Force of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, another valuable Russian A-50U aircraft was shot down over the Sea of Azov.

❌ The destroyed A-50U is a new modernized Russian version of the aircraft.

✔️ This is an air command post that the aggressor state used for long-range radar detection, control and guidance for strikes on Ukraine with missiles from strategic aviation.

🔥 The downing of the A-50U is another serious blow to the potential and capabilities of terrorist Moscow.

📍 A sharp drop in speed and height of the downed A-50U aircraft was recorded near the city of Yeisk.

⚡️ The cost of such a vessel, of which the aggressor state has a few units left, is 350 million dollars.

 
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The Netherlands concludes a ten-year security agreement with Ukraine

The outgoing cabinet will soon conclude an agreement with Ukraine stating that the Netherlands wants to support the country for at least ten years "in the areas of security, defense, reconstruction and justice", according to a statement from the Ministries of Foreign Affairs and Defense. Minister of Foreign Affairs Bruins Slot speaks of a strong signal to Russia. “Our own security is closely linked to the security of Ukraine,” says Bruins Slot. "We must not forget for a single day that the brave struggle that Ukrainians wage day in and day out in their country also concerns us. Ukraine must be able to count on our support in the longer term."

In addition to the Netherlands, Germany, France and Denmark announced this week that they had concluded similar agreements with Ukraine. The United Kingdom did so last month. These agreements are also about military and civilian support for Ukraine for the next ten years.


Continued support

Last summer, the Netherlands signed an agreement with 31 other countries and the EU that stated its intention to continue supporting Ukraine. The agreement between Ukraine and the Netherlands is a concrete implementation of this earlier agreement. Since the Russian invasion of Ukraine two years ago tomorrow, the Netherlands has supplied more than 2.8 billion euros in military goods, directly and through international funds such as the International Fund for Ukraine. "Security and freedom are not free," says Defense Minister Ollongren. "Ukraine must defeat Russia. We know what the Russian aggressor did in the areas that Ukraine has managed to liberate since the summer. We can thus imagine what may now be happening in the occupied territories in the east and south. That is why we support the Ukrainians in their struggle.”

Help so far

The Netherlands participates in the supply of F16s, integrated anti-aircraft missile defense and as an observer in other activities. The Netherlands also helps train Ukrainian soldiers so that they can handle the equipment supplied. This is also useful for the level of knowledge of the defense apparatus in the Netherlands, says Ollongren. In a letter to the House of Representatives, the cabinet provides an overview of the assistance provided so far, and what the cabinet has done with assignments and wishes that are supported by a majority of the House of Representatives.

Original in Dutch here: https://nos.nl/artikel/2510077-nederland-sluit-tienjarige-veiligheidsovereenkomst-met-oekraine
 
I don't think there's any reason to doubt the "good faith" of the answer we've gotten from red_elk, which is to destroy the "Kiev regime" and save the people of Donbass from "genocide." This explanation is basically ludicrous but it seems to be sincerely believed.
It's ironic, because ludicrous accusations in "genocide" is actually your favorite thing on this forum. I prefer to use this word much more carefully.
 
I don't think there's any reason to doubt the "good faith" of the answer we've gotten from red_elk, which is to destroy the "Kiev regime" and save the people of Donbass from "genocide." This explanation is basically ludicrous but it seems to be sincerely believed.

Of course, the evident Russian tolerance for this level of losses gives Russia a kind of strategic resilience that the US certainly does not have, unless enough of the population is convinced the war is existential (which is why Bush 2 had to lie about Iraq having nukes to get the public to support invading it).

With regard to the invasion of Ukraine I do believe Russia has much to be ashamed of and nothing to be proud of.

Oh, it's a lost cause then. It seems rather childish to be angry at people criticizing your vile ideas and political positions about the war. Then to extrapolate these criticisms and misinterpret them as applying to all Russians. And finally to use this perceived attack against your entire nation to reinforce your preexisting poorly justified positions. It's the classic us-vs-them trick. It works really well on gullible people. There are plenty of smart and decent Russians. If you're not one of them, you only have yourself to blame.

One information warfare issue for the West is that its governments are in lockstep giving material and political support to Israel, which is doing exactly the same things in Gaza that Russia is doing in Ukraine (even to the point that both countries claim, rather nonsensically, to be "fighting Nazis"). This situation makes it much easier to conclude the issue in Ukraine is animosity toward Russia specifically rather than principled opposition to aggressive war and genocidal violence.

Completely agree on that one. That's why I mentioned the wars of Bush years too. These actions make the West lose all credibility when trying to invoke moral principles to gather international support to stop current and future conflicts. Since there can be no international consensus or system to dissuade these wars, they will continue to happen. I understand why the Russian leadership feels unrestrained to start such war in this context. And I'm not surprised they use whataboutism in their official propaganda. What's harder to understand is why regular folks regurgitate that same propaganda. If other countries do horrible things how does it make it less vile when yours do the same? You can say it's expected. But going through all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify your country's crimes is rather repugnant.
 
It's ironic, because ludicrous accusations in "genocide" is actually your favorite thing on this forum. I prefer to use this word much more carefully.

I mean, to be honest, the word "genocide" has become to highly politicized that it's almost useless. All human conflicts are a tragedy. And all the deaths too, including of soldiers, usually fighting out of delusion or desperation.

But the Donbass genocide claims were probably some of the most ludicrous genocide claims I've heard in the 21st century. At 25 deaths on both sides combined per year by 2021 (mostly from leftover mines and explosives I think?), this has to be one of the most peaceful genocide this planet has seen. Or maybe Ukraine's corruption made them inefficient in carrying their extermination tasks?
 
One information warfare issue for the West is that its governments are in lockstep giving material and political support to Israel, which is doing exactly the same things in Gaza that Russia is doing in Ukraine (even to the point that both countries claim, rather nonsensically, to be "fighting Nazis"). This situation makes it much easier to conclude the issue in Ukraine is animosity toward Russia specifically rather than principled opposition to aggressive war and genocidal violence.
By the looks of it, the West isn't even concerned about saving Ukraine. At best, they're looking to have Russia get bogged down in the conflict forever. They may even be fine with sacrificing Ukraine entirely, with the confidence that Russia would only have enough strength to pick on a few small countries around it after.

Their support for Israel is probably nothing in comparison to what's needed to support Ukraine.
 
Russian sources report loss of another A-50 AWACS plane.

The first video is interesting. We see an apparently pretty big and slow plane launching flares and probably chaff which we cant see in the dark, so it knows it is being illuminated by a radar, probably from a patriot battery (patriot missiles have not radars onboard afaik but have a receiver to detect the radar radiation reflected by the target), which means it is a military big aircraft equiped with a RWR radar warning system, may be perfectly an A-50, dont know if normal Russian Il-76s have RWR probably they have. A first missile fails and explodes in the trail of flares (probably atracted by chaff since flares dont affect patriot radar-based guidance) and then a second one hits the target.
 
I mean, to be honest, the word "genocide" has become to highly politicized that it's almost useless. All human conflicts are a tragedy. And all the deaths too, including of soldiers, usually fighting out of delusion or desperation.

But the Donbass genocide claims were probably some of the most ludicrous genocide claims I've heard in the 21st century. At 25 deaths on both sides combined per year by 2021 (mostly from leftover mines and explosives I think?), this has to be one of the most peaceful genocide this planet has seen. Or maybe Ukraine's corruption made them inefficient in carrying their extermination tasks?

Modern definition of genocide is so broad as to be semi useless as it applies to a lot of wartime situations.

Big difference is when the shoting stops what happens.

Next problem is how it's overused.

Claims of Nazi is mostly to muddy the waters. Its a default accusation online for people I disagree with, authoritarian regimes or anyone who isn't hard left.

Goodwin law on a national scale.
 
Moderator Action: Back to real news please and away from idle opinion. Thanks.
 
Quite a lengthy article by Quincy Institute, about propositions of diplomatic settlement.
I doubt their plan is realistic at this point due to uncompromising position of Ukraine, nevertheless the article is worth reading in full IMO.
Some exerpts:

The Diplomatic Path to a Secure Ukraine​

Executive Summary​

Conventional wisdom holds that a negotiated end to the Ukraine war is neither possible nor desirable. This belief is false.

It is also extremely dangerous for Ukraine’s future. The war is not trending toward a stable stalemate, but toward Ukraine’s eventual collapse. Russia has corrected many of the problems that plagued its forces during the first year of fighting and adopted an attrition strategy that is gradually exhausting Ukraine’s forces, draining American military stocks, and sapping the West’s political resolve. Sanctions have not crippled Russia’s war effort, and the West cannot fix Ukraine’s acute manpower problems absent direct intervention in the war. Ukraine’s best hope lies in a negotiated settlement that protects its security, minimizes the risks of renewed attacks or escalation, and promotes broader stability in Europe and the world.

Skeptics counter that Russia has no incentive to make meaningful concessions in a war it is increasingly winning. But this belief underestimates the gap between what Russia can accomplish through its own military efforts and what it needs to ensure its broader security and economic prosperity over the longer term. Russia can probably achieve some of its war aims by force, including blocking Ukraine’s membership in NATO and capturing much of the territory it regards as historically and culturally Russian. But Russia cannot conquer, let alone govern, the majority of Ukraine, nor can Russia secure itself against the ongoing threats of Ukrainian sabotage or potential NATO strikes absent a costly permanent military buildup that would undermine its civilian economy. Reducing the deep dependence on China created by the invasion will also sooner or later require Russia to seek some form of détente with the West.

As a result, the United States has significant leverage for bringing Russia to the table and forging verifiable agreements to end the fighting. But this leverage will diminish over time. The United States should therefore quickly challenge Putin to make good on his insistence that Russia is willing to negotiate by publicly supporting calls from China, Brazil, and other key Global South actors for talks to end the war. And to help build trust and bolster dialogue, American officials should reach out to Russian representatives through both formal channels and a strictly confidential “back channel” that would facilitate sensitive discussions. Given deep Russian doubts about U.S. intentions, our outreach will have to include signals that we are prepared to discuss Moscow’s concerns about NATO expansion in the context of a Ukraine settlement.

Ukraine’s best hope lies in a negotiated settlement that protects its security, minimizes the risks of renewed attacks or escalation, and promotes broader stability in Europe and the world.

No settlement will endure unless Ukraine, Russia, and the West all see it as sufficiently serving their interests and as preferable to continued war. But we need not and should not simply trust that all parties will abide by its terms. Moscow and Washington have decades of useful Cold War experience in constructing, implementing, and monitoring a wide range of security agreements despite mutual distrust and broader geopolitical competition. While formidable, the obstacles to success are not insurmountable.

By combining defensive aid to Ukraine with a vigorous diplomatic offensive, the United States could secure independence for the vast bulk of Ukraine, provide a viable path toward its prosperity, and mitigate the dangers of long-term confrontation with Russia in Europe. This would not constitute a complete victory, but it would still be a monumental achievement.

The Military Balance: Time is Not on Ukraine’s Side​

Going into 2023, the belief that Ukraine could reconquer all or most Russian-held territory was informed by Ukraine’s remarkable achievements in the months following the initial Russian invasion. The magnitude of Ukrainian success in defeating the Kremlin’s initial hopes of reducing Ukraine to a Russian client state was in fact even greater than generally perceived at the time. If the war were to end today, some 80 percent of Ukraine would be independent and at least informally aligned with the West. This would reverse more than 300 years of Russian domination of Ukraine.2

But in 2023 Ukrainian battlefield advances stalled. As Figure One shows, the front lines of the conflict barely moved during 2023 as the Ukrainian mid-year offensive failed. Ukrainian territory held by Russia is almost identical to what it was a year ago, at approximately 18 percent of Ukraine’s territory under 1991 borders.


Ukrainian victories in 2022 were due to multiple factors: appallingly bad Russian staff work, intelligence, tactics and logistical preparation; Russian troop numbers that were inadequate to the tasks set them; rapid Ukrainian mobilization coupled with a flood of enthusiastic volunteers; Western weapons that nullified Russia’s vast superiority in armor and aircraft; and U.S. intelligence that informed the Ukrainians of the precise location, time and numbers of planned Russian attacks.3

Of all these factors, only the last two still work in Ukraine’s favor, and only if Ukraine remains on the defensive. Other factors have shifted from the start of the war:

  • Russian staff work and tactics have greatly improved as their military adapted.4
  • Russia has more than doubled the size of its force on the ground as compared to 2022.
  • Ukraine has taken substantial losses from among the troops initially mobilized.
  • Many Russian weapons are more effective defending against attacking forces than they are on the offensive.
  • Russia has greatly increased its capacity to jam the electronic systems on which much of the NATO–supplied weapons rely.
The Western powers hoped that by increasing their supply of weapons they could reinvigorate Ukraine’s offensive capacity in the face of these new factors. But in 2023 the large quantities of weapons the United States supplied for the Ukrainian counteroffensive did not help Ukraine even to break through the first line of Russian defenses. Furthermore, supplies of Western weaponry at this level are unlikely to continue. As Liana Fix and Michael Kimmage acknowledge,

“A divided Congress likely has no “mountain of steel,” as U.S. officials have called the materiel they gave Ukraine in early 2023, to provide for a renewed counteroffensive in 2024, and European countries are falling short in the assistance they have promised. In purely military terms, Ukraine’s path to victory is unclear.”5
It is all too clear that sufficient quantities of aid are not guaranteed even in the medium term, let alone indefinitely.6 The interest of Western publics in the conflict is declining.7 EU leaders have admitted in private that they cannot substitute for U.S. aid to Ukraine (especially in the military sphere) should that aid falter.8

In the United States, Ukraine has been trapped in Congressional gridlock despite warnings of imminent collapse of key military capabilities.9 Even if this gridlock is temporarily broken for a new aid package, current difficulties are a grim sign for the reliability of future assistance. Among Republicans in Congress, a large number share the views of Senator J.D. Vance:

“[O]n the Ukraine question in particular, everybody with a brain in their head knows this was always going to end in negotiation. The idea that Ukraine was going to throw Russia back to the 1991 border was preposterous; nobody actually believed it…So what we’re saying to the president and really to the entire world is you need to articulate what the ambition is. What is $61 billion [in additional aid to Ukraine] going to accomplish that $100 billion hasn’t?”10
Thus, as the war enters its third year, the combination of Russian structural advantages over Ukraine in population and economic size and the political uncertainty of continued Western aid to Ukraine is forcing, as it should, a reconsideration of the insistence on rejecting negotiations with Russia and holding out for total reconquest of Ukraine’s 1991 borders. Western advocates of a continued reliance on a purely military strategy have fallen back on two claims. 11

The first proposes that certain tactical Ukrainian successes can bring strategic victory in the war. Thus some senior retired U.S. military officers have argued that Ukraine’ success with missile strikes against the Russian Black Sea Fleet at Sevastopol (which have apparently forced many of its warships to retreat to Novorossiysk) mean that Ukraine could drive Russian forces from Crimea — or force a broader Russian capitulation — by long–range bombardment alone. 12

Ukrainian success against the Black Sea Fleet is indeed significant, insofar as it reduces Russia’s ability to blockade Ukraine, as well Russia’s capacity for amphibious assault on Ukraine’s Black Sea coast.13 However, when it comes to Ukraine actually retaking Crimea or forcing a broader Russian capitulation, even if Kyiv were given the vastly greater amounts of Western weaponry and munitions necessary to attempt this, the Ukrainian army and navy would still have to carry out a major amphibious landing. This is perhaps the most challenging of all military operations, and one the Ukrainian military is ill equipped for.

Moreover, long–range air strikes have rarely had decisive strategic effects in war absent significant advances in capturing and holding territory. Equipping Ukraine for such a campaign would risk provoking large–scale Russian retaliation, as it would almost certainly fuel existing criticism from right–wing Russian nationalists that Putin has been too passive in defending Russian red lines.14

The second approach is to recommend that the United States and NATO accept the need for a “long war,” as NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg has said.15 Particularly fervent advocates of a military solution call for Western countries to further militarize their economies in order to sustain massive support for Ukraine indefinitely. 16

It is indeed true that given time, money and political will, the United States and NATO could give Ukraine much larger amounts of weaponry and ammunition. Steps in this direction are being taken. For example, the Pentagon has awarded $1.5 billion in contracts to increase production of 155 mm artillery shells, and has more than doubled monthly shell production since the beginning of the Ukraine war.17 However, it has also said that it needs an additional $3 billion in order to achieve the target of 100,000 shells a month by 2025 — a level that still falls well short of Russian production. 18

Moreover, while the West can provide Ukraine with weapons, it cannot provide the men to use them. Even as Russia’s forces in Ukraine increase, the Ukrainian military is experiencing difficulty maintaining an adequate number of high–quality troops.

According to Time Magazine, the average age of Ukrainian soldiers is now 43 years and rising fast — which is much too old for real combat effectiveness.19 Ukraine is facing greater and greater difficulties in recruiting conscripts, with many young men now evading service within Ukraine, bribing the authorities to exempt them, or fleeing abroad. Ukrainian government attempts to toughen and extend conscription laws are meeting strong resistance in society and in the Ukrainian parliament.20 Indeed, the need for large numbers of additional troops despite the political resistance to major increases in conscription appears to be an issue at the heart of President Zelensky’s conflict with General Zaluzhny, the recently dismissed former commander of Ukraine’s armed forces.21

Even if conscription was increased, all too many of the highly–motivated young men who joined up at the start of the war are now dead or disabled, and the quality of those remaining is much less certain.22

In contrast, Russian troop strength within Ukraine is increasing. As Figure Two shows, the number of Russian troops within Ukrainian territory is now well over double the size of the initial 2022 invasion force.


Further, the increasing Russian population advantage over Ukraine is likely to permit Russia to maintain or increase its growth in forces, and possibly overwhelm Ukrainian manpower resources. Although getting reliable data out of wartime Ukraine is a challenge, migration into the EU and into Russia in response to the war appears to have driven substantial Ukrainian population declines since the invasion. As Figure Three below shows, estimates of the population in Ukrainian–controlled territory today run from about one quarter at the high end to less than one fifth of Russia’s population.

Conclusion – U.S. Policy Steps​

The discussion above gives a sense of specific policy steps the United States could take to pave the way toward the negotiating table. These steps include:

  1. Restoring defensive aid to Ukraine: It is important to lift the question of aid to Ukraine out of its current political morass and establish that the United States. will aid Ukraine’s self-defense unless and until Russia comes to the negotiating table. However, aid should not be targeted at goals that are militarily impractical and signal hostility to any negotiated settlement, such as the complete defeat of Russia. The alignment of the intent, level, and type of aid with the goal of a negotiated solution should reduce political opposition to aid, which is currently driven in part by the fear of an endless war and unlimited costs.
  2. Open a confidential diplomatic back channel to Russia: Washington should seek mutually trusted envoys from the United States and Russian side who could begin private communication around the possibility of negotiations.
  3. Privately indicate that the United States is open to discussing NATO membership for Ukraine: As discussed above, this would be a powerful signal to Russia of Western seriousness in seeking peace. It would also carry little if any practical cost given that the reality of Western actions show that the United States and other NATO members do not wish to involve their own forces in a Ukraine conflict.
  4. Reach out to China and the Global South to discuss the parameters of a negotiated compromise in Ukraine: Such outreach would also be private, but could have a powerful effect in demonstrating our seriousness to Russia in seeking a settlement.
  5. Change U.S. public rhetoric: Our public rhetoric should indicate openness to negotiations rather than the belief that peace can be obtained purely by ultimatum or coercion, or that conflict should be sustained indefinitely.
 
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