[BTS] SGOTM 25 - Home Slices

[babybluepants]

That's better, but it would be just a domination or diplomation win with all AI alive.

 

[WastinTime]

That's better, but it would be just a domination or diplomation win with all AI alive.

Domination would have been (almost?) impossible if you leave the western hemisphere untouched and all 8 AI alive.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Did the Admins specify that population% must include barb population?

 

[babybluepants]

They just realized that there is a population issue. Let's see what they can come up with... Crunch time!

 

[LowtherCastle]

Well, we lost two turns at least to time pressure, so if they suffer time pressure too, it's only fair. The deadline was specified eons ago and no cosmic catastrophes have occurred other than us losing two turns...

 

[LowtherCastle]

Yup, Elite realizes there are 57 barb poppers now....that's why I wanted to avoid cutting the 420 too close.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Wow... What happened is that there is about 57 barb pop in the world. We were thinking we would get 50% of the remaining pop as we vassal everyone, but we won't vassal the barbs.

Need to calculate, this might change a lot.

gumbolt, are you using the score calculator sheet or just pulling numbers out of nowhere? 40% pop and 26% land is nowhere near enough with current plan.

In that last question I detect a hint of desperation and exasperation...human drama unfolding...

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I agree. Deckhand stated as much in XTeam's thread - it was his intent to cap it at 30/30/40, but all of the teams interpreted it differently and they acquiesced. I think they should have been clearer in the rules. But civil is the really broken ministry.

Actually this was clarified in the pre-game discussion:-

Military Ministry: 30 points * population% / 35% - Is it somewhere silently implied that Pop score is capped at 30? (With a no vassals conquest victory the team would have 100% population, or 30 points * 100% / 35% = 85 points.)
No silent imply. You can get more points than 30 from population. The only cap is the points of each ministry, which is 100.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Actually this was clarified in the pre-game discussion:-

But what's unclear to me is this:

40% * (destroyed civilization + vassal civilization )/ 8
​

If AIs create 10 vassals and we destroy them plus 6 AIs, is it this:

40% * (6 + 10) / 8 = 80%​

Or was the intention to maximize the numerator at the 8 original AIs, destroyed or vassalized?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Btw, regardless of your answer on this Noble, it would be unfair to raise the issue with PR right now, especially if it's in their favor and they suddenly realize they've got the 100 Military points when before they thought they didn't.

(I don't even know if PR had AIs vassalize like we did.)

 

[LowtherCastle]

Looking good for us. PR is realizing they're messed up. Credit goes to Sossos's challenging scenario. Not so simple after all, eh WT?

They're down 8 points, which is 2 wonders. Have they already built all 25 wonders?

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Btw, regardless of your answer on this Noble, it would be unfair to raise the issue with PR right now

Oh absolutely, just talking with others who have finished!

Or was the intention to maximize the numerator at the 8 original AIs, destroyed or vassalized?

There were a few things like that where the precise details weren't really nailed down.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Wow. Thanks for all of the kind words!!

By the time I had spare cycles in RL, the game was way too complicated for me to easily jump in and contribute.

If there's another game, I promise to at least double the time I spent on this one... haha

Mitch, yours was the most important turnset of the game! Believe me.*

* In Erkon we trust.

Incidentally, take a look at PR posting style. It would literally drive you nuts. There's a reason they have so many fewer posts than us. They post, then add a line and post, then add a line and post, then add a line and post, until the post is 10-15 lines long...it's almost Dhoomesque!

 

[babybluepants]

Looking good for us. PR is realizing they're messed up. Credit goes to Sossos's challenging scenario. Not so simple after all, eh WT?

They're down 8 points, which is 2 wonders. Have they already built all 25 wonders?

I believe they are planning on 22, but not entirely sure. They have also whipped everything down really viciously, so another wonder might be a stretch.

(I don't even know if PR had AIs vassalize like we did.)

No, only 8 AIs in their game.

I gotta say, elitetroops is a beast.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I gotta say, elitetroops is a beast.

Without having examined their game, my impression is they slightly outplayed us in the early game...again.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Fippy's bummed out. That's a pity because I consider this one of the best SG scenarios ever.

We can vote on this imo, mine is doing everything as planned, win the game (not scenario) in 200AD if what we would have tried works.
Protest play, and that's how i feel.

Rivals are listed as 8, when in reality the biggest danger were barbs.
I just feel tricked, sorry.

Okay, we have become friends in this game i think and i am happy to go with that.
My micro goes until next turn, i can do that and pass the game (too tired, too unmovitated for more).

I don't see the barb pop as tricky at all, personally, since we knew from T1 about the barbs and it's long since known how to discern there are barb pops/cities using the F7/F8/F9/etc screens. The fact they know those barbs are out there now proves they knew how to do this. They just neglected that aspect of the game.

Our scouting America with the bomber had nothing to do with it really. Still, pity that Fippy's demoralized. I can understand why, though, winning gold has always been hard. I still think they outplayed us early on. The challenge is to carry it through to the end.

 

[WastinTime]

I consider this one of the best SG scenarios ever.

can we agree that it could have been one of the best? and it certainly was fun and challenging. Great concept. The fun mainly comes from my awesome team We could just play an unedited map and have fun. The ministries just didn't play that well together...and then there's econ ministry Although I read U.Suspects did get Econ points

I still think they outplayed us early on. The challenge is to carry it through to the end.

I didn't really do much of the early game (before T42), but you guys amazed me at how fast you were taking cities. Way faster than I imagined. It will be interesting to see the difference in the progression of cities (not population or score). The graph just shows score. I think you guys rocked the early game.

I still think they outplayed us

They're definitely working harder and studying more details. We were breeezing past 420, so didn't care too much. Our culture abuse maybe didn't play as big a part as it could have since all it would do if we had time to finish it (T75) was get us to, what? 470 points? We would have been fine doing traditional EP culture for 40-50 less points.

 

[WastinTime]

I don't see the barb pop as tricky at all

Right. Your pop is right there on the F8 screen and so is the best AI pop. Scouting gives you a hint too.
Very few teams scouted like we did, esp America. I wonder if lots of teams didn't realize you could rebase with open borders. I know we had to learn that. I was surprised to find that out.

 

[WastinTime]

I don't like that vassal population counts. I wasn't counting on it. However, the whole problem could have been avoided with a 30pt cap on Population, then PR would not be frustrated rt now. They'd be short a lot of points....but they would have played very differently...probably had a stack of settlers to grab land at the end. Attacked barbs, or just whipped less. I hope they don't go away angry. They should be very proud of their game-- gold or no gold. They could still manage it. That's what I love about CivIV. There always seems to be a way to correct a problem (given enough turns.)

 

[LowtherCastle]

can we agree that it could have been one of the best? and it certainly was fun and challenging. Great concept. The fun mainly comes from my awesome team We could just play an unedited map and have fun. The ministries just didn't play that well together...and then there's econ ministry Although I read U.Suspects did get Econ points

Hell, I'll agree it sucked if you want. Sure, I get your point. Frederiksburg discusses that in the XTeam thread. He wishes more testing could have been done. This was just sossos first (or whichever) draft of the scenario. I guess what I'm saying is that this game had a lot of challenging elements most don't have, starting with it being a very short game turnwise. That's really hard to optimize on the first run-through. Remember that HOF CHallenge game where I won it in 30-some turns and then much later you figured out how to get it into the 20s and I even toyed around with getting it in the teens. Of course, that's with Mapmaker but the point is how hard it is to envision how short a game could optimally be.