Shadow Game - Is this just a map *I* can not beat?

[Build2Much]

@Build2Much

Spoiler :

I don't like your city#3 placement at all.
Why is it so far away? What does it bring to Carthage? Why not simply 3S of cap?

Thanks for the criticism, need this to improve play, especially later! Fair questions and while I don’t think it’s game breaking there were in my opinion 3 general city sites at that point to choose from - east, south and north. My reasoning:

Spoiler :

In simplest terms, cottages. Once my monument pops there are 2 flood plains, 2 grassland riverside tiles and 2 forested grassland riverside tiles. My happy cap is coincidentally 6 unless I find happiness or go Monarchy. I’m leaning towards no monarchy for this run atm if I think I can get the scientists. So this city is straight commerce production and is connected via river already. Additionally it is a great base for fog busting which is why I already had a warrior there and the extra city hammer.

The sneaky good city is actually north settled on the desert tile that can take Carthage’s corn, plus has wheat and pig once the borders pop. I haven’t built a road in that direction yet though. Can run scientists early if i want, has the forests to chop for production, and is a workshop beast later. South was where I put city 2 the first time I think, but I always find it underwhelming and that it takes a long time to get going. Those are my 5 spots I like best though.

More comments/questions welcome!

 

[soundjata]

Thanks for the criticism, need this to improve play, especially later! Fair questions and while I don’t think it’s game breaking there were in my opinion 3 general city sites at that point to choose from - east, south and north. My reasoning:

Spoiler :

In simplest terms, cottages. Once my monument pops there are 2 flood plains, 2 grassland riverside tiles and 2 forested grassland riverside tiles. My happy cap is coincidentally 6 unless I find happiness or go Monarchy. I’m leaning towards no monarchy for this run atm if I think I can get the scientists. So this city is straight commerce production and is connected via river already. Additionally it is a great base for fog busting which is why I already had a warrior there and the extra city hammer.

The sneaky good city is actually north settled on the desert tile that can take Carthage’s corn, plus has wheat and pig once the borders pop. I haven’t built a road in that direction yet though. Can run scientists early if i want, has the forests to chop for production, and is a workshop beast later. South was where I put city 2 the first time I think, but I always find it underwhelming and that it takes a long time to get going. Those are my 5 spots I like best though.

More comments/questions welcome!

Spoiler :

It's good sometimes to think return on investment

When you say 'Once my monument pops there are...' you envision a distant future that is far away from the moment you decide investing on that settler isn't it?

In my game city 3 takes 8 turns to build, 2 turns to move and it starts working clam immediately.
It will convert the / investment into in ~ 20 turns.
(20 turns is usually a good threshold to decide whether a ROI is good or not)

City 4 definitely delays the monarchy date by 1 or 2 turns.
But it quickly brings a benefit afterwards because of mucho cottages.

City 5 will be a greater investment (worker turns!), which will probably delay Optics but will certainly accelerate Astronomy
(triple food city maybe? )


In CIV4, cities are not cities. They are victory accelerators

 

[Build2Much]

Spoiler :

It's good sometimes to think return on investment

When you say 'Once my monument pops there are...' you envision a distant future that is far away from the moment you decide investing on that settler isn't it?

In my game city 3 takes 8 turns to build, 2 turns to move and it starts working clam immediately.
It will convert the / investment into in ~ 20 turns.
(20 turns is usually a good threshold to decide whether a ROI is good or not)

City 4 definitely delays the monarchy date by 1 or 2 turns.
But it quickly brings a benefit afterwards because of mucho cottages.

City 5 will be a greater investment (worker turns!), which will probably delay Optics but will certainly accelerate Astronomy
(triple food city maybe? )


In CIV4, cities are not cities. They are victory accelerators

True, but…

Spoiler :

immediately the city is connected so does not drain the economy, I can build 1 FP cottage and 1 grassland cottage at that site before the border pop and the monument comes quickly because of the extra city hammer, meaning I do not need to whip and can keep working cottages. Then with the forests, I can chop out a library or even a settler if that seems better. Ocean access is a bonus for those financial tiles and a launch point for a caravel (long term).

The city south I still need a pop for the wheat, I need a boat for the clam, sailing for the water tiles, and I can only take one cottage from Carthage.

Again, not game breaking either way, but I like the maturing cottages ASAP

 

[jorissimo]

True, but…

Spoiler :

immediately the city is connected so does not drain the economy, I can build 1 FP cottage and 1 grassland cottage at that site before the border pop and the monument comes quickly because of the extra city hammer, meaning I do not need to whip and can keep working cottages. Then with the forests, I can chop out a library or even a settler if that seems better. Ocean access is a bonus for those financial tiles and a launch point for a caravel (long term).

The city south I still need a pop for the wheat, I need a boat for the clam, sailing for the water tiles, and I can only take one cottage from Carthage.

Again, not game breaking either way, but I like the maturing cottages ASAP

Spoiler :

The southern city is as instaconnected as the eastern one. It also doesn't need a monument because it can work the clam. Dry plains wheat is not worth the investment. You also won't need sailing right away. The western city could have built or chopped a boat for it.

 

[Build2Much]

Spoiler :

The southern city is as instaconnected as the eastern one. It also doesn't need a monument because it can work the clam. Dry plains wheat is not worth the investment. You also won't need sailing right away. The western city could have built or chopped a boat for it.

Spoiler :

I agree with everything you said, but that’s also why I’m waiting there. I don’t want to build a monument south and I don’t want to build the boat in Utica yet, I want a library and scientists ASAP in that location. I plan to build my northern city next and that would be my last monument I build

 

[jorissimo]

Spoiler :

I agree with everything you said, but that’s also why I’m waiting there. I don’t want to build a monument south and I don’t want to build the boat in Utica yet, I want a library and scientists ASAP in that location. I plan to build my northern city next and that would be my last monument I build

Spoiler :

You don't need a monument anywhere, Carthage's borders will pop on t50, coinciding nicely with the ideal moment to found a third city. You shouldn't be focusing on libraries and scientists at 2 cities, you'll have plenty of time for that. That workboat will give you a much faster and higher ROI than a library at that point.

 

[Build2Much]

Spoiler :

You don't need a monument anywhere, Carthage's borders will pop on t50, coinciding nicely with the ideal moment to found a third city. You shouldn't be focusing on libraries and scientists at 2 cities, you'll have plenty of time for that. That workboat will give you a much faster and higher ROI than a library at that point.

Spoiler :

I’m already at T65, borders aren’t popping in Carthage again for 124 turns as it currently stands (library will speed that up of course) and monument is also giving the 1 happy that is the most important part. I’m also running out of things to spend hammers on very soon. If I go monarchy I can build warriors to get bigger cities, but with the unit costs that start to add up. If I skip monarchy I can have size 7 , size 6 cities west east and north and then a size 5 with no monument in the south.

From here if I skip monarchy I can put hammers in granaries (which I really don’t need since I cant grow anyway), libraries, forges, cothons & lighthouses in coastal cities. Which is why the Alphabet/Math/Calendar detour sounded interesting if I can get 3 GS out to bulb optics and Astro on the same turn. Still waiting at T65 for now though

 

[Fippy]

Monarchy is miles better than Alpha

 

[sampsa]

Yeah the land is green river galore, you are FIN, have all grains for extra +3, so of course you want to grow to work more cottages!

Map seems very easy and I don't think it matters much on immortal that there is another strong civilization out there.

 

[chinemol]

gave it a try.
read the spoiler and half watched the vid congrats @Tecumseh1 on giving it a go! having said that, went another direction:
settled on the coast, got couple settlers, built TgL. 6 cities gaming, only city 2 inland claiming horses, corn, cotageable river.
went kind of textbook optics, no detours on techs. built the colosus since it was not yet built and had copper (whipped the capital for both wonders, it hurt).
zara is running ahead with 12 cities, but with only gandhi as a vassal and 7 cities monty sharing his religion. elsewise they are all on their own
I suck at naval invasions, but with enough practice should be quite doable.

A better player following that path might have avoided paying a lot on fogbusting, not run into unhappiness and microed better...

 

[Whisker]

Gave this a try.
I just kinda played without any real plan, and fully settled the home continent giving priority to cottages. After math I noticed that pyramids had not yet gone, so i chopped them in capital. Expanded a bit too fast and could have gotten a much better astro date by postponing settling after contact with the other continent. Anyway double bulbed astro 920 AD and made contact with Monty couple turns after (his caravel found me). It's now 1150 AD and I believe I have now met all AI. I'm still only one to astro, but otherwise I'm somewhat behind in tech. The AIs seem to have gone deep into the civil branch of the tech tree as I had defensive pact offered to me by several AI on the turn I met them. Gandhi is only one who has education and can research liberalism, I will try to race him, but I'm not feeling confident.
Political situation is such that Zara has Gandhi peace vassaled and is great friends with both Gilgamesh and Cyrus. Monty and Brennus are aligned against this block and are annoyed with everyone. I'm largest with 13 cities, Zara has 11 and rest are quite a bit smaller.
I wonder if I should hold to astro or sell it around to narrow the tech gap?

 

[Build2Much]

Yeah the land is green river galore, you are FIN, have all grains for extra +3, so of course you want to grow to work more cottages!

Map seems very easy and I don't think it matters much on immortal that there is another strong civilization out there.

I agree with what you said - seems a great start, I think it should be easy. Which is why I have posted it to see if I can get help - most likely I am just bad at the post Astro game and war build up.

Looks like some people have played through so I’ll jump forward today.

 

[jorissimo]

built the colosus since it was not yet built and had copper

Is this worth it even with such a short window before obsoletion? And did you manage to get GS out despite all of the GM points?

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

So I rushed through the map for 20 minutes just to get a feel, didn't micromanage.

Spoiler :

With Carthage, definitely astronomy ASAP, the cothon is awesome. Astronomy ASAP means no colossus. The cothon obsoletes the Great Lighthouse. GLH is useless because, combined with cothon, there are not enough foreign cities. No distractions, just monarchy and astronomy ASAP.

Some players are weak because they don't have a lot of land or the leader doesn't train many units. Cannons are the default for isolation, but this time I would go curaissers, even though I don't like them. I would build stables and upgrade numidian cavalry to curaissers. Save the promotions for healing, attack a weak player fast, and keep pressing.

 

[a pen-dragon]

I did play this on Immortal as I was not in the mood to deal with Deity barbs. I think the main obstacle towards a Deity win would be barbs.

Spoiler Game details :

I settled on the PH, then between the rice and pigs, then south, then the northern three-food city, and last one in the east.

As there has been a bit of discussion on the northern one, I will present my reasoning:
As has been noted there is an abundance of food for the low happy cap, making delaying AH reasonable. In the same line of thought, as soon as the capital reaches size 7 it does not need the corn. The northern city can grow on the corn and then whip a monument at size 2, making it productive relatively soon. A monument could also be chopped. It can get a scientist without much trouble and it can be whipped frequently for expansion, especially after reaching Astronomy.

I did goof around a little, and reached a relatively late optics in 200AD. On the continent they almost were cavemen. Monty was amongst the better developed leaders, he even was kind of the tech leader when I first met them, but proceeded to fall behind due to having only 4 cities.

Gandhi soon peace vassaled to Zara, and I did not want to bribe Zara off Gilga, as that would have been too expensive, meaning that he soon gained Gilga as a vassal.

Next I did settle the southern Islands, because it was possible and I am more of a builder. It would have been more rigorous to invade one of the smaller AIs, especially Monty would have made a juicy target. Cannons or Cuirs would both have been possible. On Deity going for Cuirs would probably have been quite risky due to a short window.

Then I rolled over the world with tanks.

I do not believe the AIs on the other continent would have been much of a threat on Deity, as Zara is one of the weaker leaders militarily. The biggest threat is Gandhi getting a cultural victory. Gandhi peace vassaling to Zara is likely relatively frequent, but the others probably would stay at 6 cities and thus be easy targets if one can not bring Zara down directly. IMHO Zara is unlikely to win anything except a spaceship with Gandhi getting most of the religions and him being too peaceful to consistently go for domination, leaving lots of time to act. On this map there is sufficient good land that an immediate breakout is not necessary.

 

[Build2Much]

Update through turn 100:

Spoiler :

T65 slider to zero for a turn, start sailing. I have decided to go straight to optics - I can work every available green river or flood plain cottage without monarchy, so I am going to add 2 cities (to 5 total) not population for now. Also questioning if I should have wasted the turn to slavery, but I’ll use it a couple times I guess.

T69 Sailing done, start Metal Casting. Currently when I run slider at zero I can pocket 41 commerce/coins/whatever you call it. When I run slider at 100 I’m -8 coin, +49 beakers - so 1 turn of zero buys 5 turns of 100%. I’m half built on 2 libraries which will boost that soon. Demo screen says my GNP is 60 at 100% tied for lead (so basically I think that’s means I’m teching well?)

T71 2pop whip libraries in Carthage and Utica. I am under barb archer pressure, but should be fine. Been running zero slider for a couple turns, so will get library boost next turn when i turn it back on. Utica is working 2 cottages, pigs, 2 scientists, slow building granary. Hadrumetum finishes monument, is working 2 cottages and building settler which I will chop out. Carthage is finishing a chariot, chopped into a settler.

T81 found C4 Hippo north on desert tile. Already connected. Take corn from Carthage. Chopping monument. Carthage is building a warrior to grow back to size 7, settler will come out of Hadrumetum in 2 turns. I have 3 chariots and my original warrior starting to push out but been dealing with barbs. Borders have popped in Utica and Hadrumetum at this point.

T83 finish Metal Casting, start IW

T85 barb city pops up where I had just moved a chariot from in a place I’ve never seen (3NW of hippo). So that’s fun!

T86 found Kerkouane 3 south of Carthage. Take the cottage they share. Start workboat. Carthage is working 5 cottages and the horses, slow building a forge. Utica 2 scientists, 3 cottages and the pig. Hadrumetum 2 cottages with a 3rd built about to be worked, heading to the 4th. Hippo still corn and a forest tile, monument done in 2 turns.

T87 finish IW, find Iron, start compass.

T90 GS 1 out.

T96 finish compass, start machinery. Work boat out, start lighthouse in Kerkouane. Starving Utica to finish granary / not grow for a couple turns. Hippo borders about to pop.

T100 going to stop here for a bit. Been running a zero slider, now back at 100 will have machinery in 9 turns (150BC). Carthage is working 5 cottages, horses and a 4H mine to keep from growing. Can start whipping in Hippo if I want, tons of food and production up there. Utica still running scientists, 23 turns from #2 which should be a decent time. I will possibly grow into unhappiness there to whip the cothon. Been slow building a trieme in Hadrumetum to make a caravel when the time comes. I’m working 4 cottages there with a 5th already built. #1 in GNP at the moment. Getting close to the point where I start to fail!

 

[Build2Much]

I did play this on Immortal as I was not in the mood to deal with Deity barbs. I think the main obstacle towards a Deity win would be barbs.

Spoiler Game details :

I settled on the PH, then between the rice and pigs, then south, then the northern three-food city, and last one in the east.

As there has been a bit of discussion on the northern one, I will present my reasoning:
As has been noted there is an abundance of food for the low happy cap, making delaying AH reasonable. In the same line of thought, as soon as the capital reaches size 7 it does not need the corn. The northern city can grow on the corn and then whip a monument at size 2, making it productive relatively soon. A monument could also be chopped. It can get a scientist without much trouble and it can be whipped frequently for expansion, especially after reaching Astronomy.

I did goof around a little, and reached a relatively late optics in 200AD. On the continent they almost were cavemen. Monty was amongst the better developed leaders, he even was kind of the tech leader when I first met them, but proceeded to fall behind due to having only 4 cities.

Gandhi soon peace vassaled to Zara, and I did not want to bribe Zara off Gilga, as that would have been too expensive, meaning that he soon gained Gilga as a vassal.

Next I did settle the southern Islands, because it was possible and I am more of a builder. It would have been more rigorous to invade one of the smaller AIs, especially Monty would have made a juicy target. Cannons or Cuirs would both have been possible. On Deity going for Cuirs would probably have been quite risky due to a short window.

Then I rolled over the world with tanks.

I do not believe the AIs on the other continent would have been much of a threat on Deity, as Zara is one of the weaker leaders militarily. The biggest threat is Gandhi getting a cultural victory. Gandhi peace vassaling to Zara is likely relatively frequent, but the others probably would stay at 6 cities and thus be easy targets if one can not bring Zara down directly. IMHO Zara is unlikely to win anything except a spaceship with Gandhi getting most of the religions and him being too peaceful to consistently go for domination, leaving lots of time to act. On this map there is sufficient good land that an immediate breakout is not necessary.

Thank you for playing and clearly where I fail is from Astro (which I thought was probably the case).

Spoiler :

On 2 attempts i settled islands, the small jungle one got a city, the one with silver got 2, the one with horses as well, room for multiple cities there including a triple seafood if i remember correctly. Probably because of tech path i felt slowed down when I did this.

Zara is the one that for some reason blows past me in every game. I can’t conquer him first if and when I try to go for a big tech advantage he keeps up / gets ahead of me and Ghandi starts pumping culture. I’m hoping this will be the one where I figure out where I go wrong!

 

[Build2Much]

So I rushed through the map for 20 minutes just to get a feel, didn't micromanage.

Spoiler :

With Carthage, definitely astronomy ASAP, the cothon is awesome. Astronomy ASAP means no colossus. The cothon obsoletes the Great Lighthouse. GLH is useless because, combined with cothon, there are not enough foreign cities. No distractions, just monarchy and astronomy ASAP.

Some players are weak because they don't have a lot of land or the leader doesn't train many units. Cannons are the default for isolation, but this time I would go curaissers, even though I don't like them. I would build stables and upgrade numidian cavalry to curaissers. Save the promotions for healing, attack a weak player fast, and keep pressing.

I have tried your recommended military strategy, but clearly not properly. This will be the attempt where I learn how to handle this type of game!

 

[Build2Much]

Is this worth it even with such a short window before obsoletion? And did you manage to get GS out despite all of the GM points?

I did attempt once in a speed run. Would not recommend.

 

[a pen-dragon]

Spoiler comments :

On 2 attempts i settled islands, the small jungle one got a city, the one with silver got 2, the one with horses as well, room for multiple cities there including a triple seafood if i remember correctly.

IMHO only the silver spot, the sheep/fish on the same island and the 3 seafood are good spots. The others are nice, but need time and will only come into play at around the same time as assembly line. Also they all need culture, i.e. music or caste system. If you want a really quick attack, then only the silver spot is worth it, as that provides happiness, but else you want to put your hammers into troops and not settlers.

I will point out a few things I believe to be mistakes, but do not be discouraged, generally your empire is looking sufficiently good.

Take corn from Carthage. Chopping monument. Carthage is building a warrior to grow back to size 7

IMHO growing Carthage takes priority, especially if you chop a monument.

found Kerkouane 3 south of Carthage. Take the cottage they share. Start workboat.

You had an up and running coastal city in Utica. That one should have built the workboat in advance. This allows your new city to grow right away and focus on infrastructure.

start lighthouse in Kerkouane.

IMHO a monument is more important, as that will add one happiness and a 4 food tile. Lighthouse should come next.

More small stuff:

1. I frequently prefer getting compass before metal casting in isolation, as that opens harbors. You will want them eventually, and with the UB you even get +1 trade route now.
2. the barb city is 3NE of Hippo, not 3NW.Hippo should have whipped the granary.
3. barbs can still spawn on the tiles 4E and 6E1N of Hippo, beware! It is also possible the barb city will send an archer your way.
4. Hippo should have whipped the granary.
5. IMHO Carthage should be working cottages instead of a mine and horses. It will make a great Buro capital.
6. mines is general are not that good, especially when you have food and can whip.
7. You do not need all these roads right now, there should be a few more cottages around Carthage. Do not be afraid to cottage grassland hills or plains, especially on rivers around such a capital. IMHO all possible river tiles and flat grassland except the horse around Carthage should be cottaged. Irrigating the Wheat is likely worth less.