Shadow Game - Is this just a map *I* can not beat?

[Build2Much]

@a pen-dragon - thanks for taking the time - This is good for me to explain/defend myself and learn where my thoughts are bad!

Spoiler :

I took Metal Casting before Compass simply to have something to build in Carthage. I couldn’t figure out what to do unless I was getting chariots / warriors. May have been wrong.

Didn’t worry about the work boat first because I took a cottage from Carthage instead. After library whip couldn’t have worked all the cottages otherwise. May have been a mistake to even whip library in Carthage, but had a couple archers bearing down on me and felt I needed to get a 3rd chariot out just in case one of mine died.

I will look at monument south, but I thought I might get to Astro before I even get to size 6. May whip as a compromise.

Built 1 mine to give to Kerk after Forge finishes in Carthage and to stall at size 7 as well. Can run an engineer, turn on avoid growth or grow into unhappiness now. Trying very hard not to build more just for lack of something to build.

Agree on cottages around the capital. Not sure if I should build 1 food river tiles or grassland first. can work 2 1 food river and stall at size 7 so that’s probably the best current plan?

I think I’ve been stingy on roads, . Road from Carthage to Utica allowed C2 settle 1 turn early and instant connection (not connected until turn 51 otherwise). Edit: you are probably talking about north. I was killing time to hit the pigs immediately when it popped with 2 workers. Road north of the city was to not waste a turn moving, there are 2 workers there, each built half a road on this turn because they couldn’t start farming / mining until next turn.

Thanks again!

 

[a pen-dragon]

I took Metal Casting before Compass simply to have something to build in Carthage. I couldn’t figure out what to do unless I was getting chariots / warriors. May have been wrong.

If it is not growing anyway you might want to slowbuild a few workers. You will need lots of them after Astro, and you see a bit low on them right now.

 

[aitkensam]

Immortal to 560 AD

Spoiler :

250 AD Astro. Now met everyone. Zara is big but he didn't get any great wonders (only MoM) so it looks like a fairly straightforward game. I would probably go Cavs if continuing as I am too lazy for Cannons and tech lead should be good enough. Some free land to the south but I would probably ignore it and just go for war asap.

 

[Build2Much]

Immortal to 560 AD

Spoiler :

250 AD Astro. Now met everyone. Zara is big but he didn't get any great wonders (only MoM) so it looks like a fairly straightforward game. I would probably go Cavs if continuing as I am too lazy for Cannons and tech lead should be good enough. Some free land to the south but I would probably ignore it and just go for war asap.
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Appreciate you playing to here, looks very familiar and this is where I fail from . A couple of questions/comments from what I can see.

Spoiler :

1. We differ in city placement by maybe a tile on some of them, but looks like I haven’t been regularly making some huge blunder, which is good. Your city spot top left by the copper and crab I am embarrassed to say I never even considered. I have almost always put it on the naked tundra tile 2w1s. Your spot is much, much better for a multitude of reasons. The second one I like that I never consider is Kerkouane. I usually put that city on the plains hill and farm the tile you settled to achieve the same result. Not sure if one is better than another, but you made that spot a priority settling it early, where I didn’t. Your barb city is in a spot that I get suckered into putting a city too early because of the whale. Using your Leptis spot earlier than the coastal spot makes much more sense.

2. It is relatively unique in your game that Zara is on his own with Buddhism and everyone else but Monty is sharing Hinduism (Monty is almost always a lone wolf so that is normal). In 500 years I would expect Gilgamesh and Ghandi to be vassaled and I definitely don’t handle it well. It would be very unusual if that did not happen.

3. Could you share your post-Astro tech path? What techs are you willing to trade and did you avoid trading with anyone? Sometimes I trade with everyone, sometimes I limit it, sometimes Brennus and Monty won’t trade with me. I typically hold Optics / Astro to myself until one of them self techs it but I will trade up to that point on the Astro line.

Thanks!

 

[Build2Much]

@aitkensam or anyone that can answer. I clearly don’t understand imports/exports in this game. How are you #1 at +84 and where do I go to learn this! Is this just choosing to sell resources rather than trade them for happiness?

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Discussion in response to @a pen-dragon

Spoiler :

Since you have decided to settle the Southern islands, have you considered releasing it as a colony? We only want the silver. The colony gets foreign trade routes so it's more efficient.

Why would you wait until tanks? I would hate trying to attack after railroad and combustion.

 

[Build2Much]

Update through turn 129 350AD. I have double bulbed Astro this turn, will get the last couple of beakers when I end turn. I’ve had a better date, but I like my empire, 7 cities founded, 8th settler on the move, 9th settler halfway done. This is where I need help based on what I’m hearing in this thread, especially what trades I should be making / looking for. Thanks in advance!

Spoiler :

T100 - I did miss my whip window on the granary in Hippo, I don’t think it is worth it. I definitely start to get sloppy with worker management at this point and will try to be careful.

T107 - trireme out, exploring to the right. Start granary I will whip.

T108 - 3pop whip cothon in Utica from size 7, will grow back quickly. 2pop whip granary Hadrumetum.

T109 - Machinery, start Optics. Slider at zero, should be 12-13 turns? Have to remember to get trireme back in time! Utica GS2 is 14 turns away, so plenty of time, switch to cottages there instead of scientists for a turn since I just whipped.

T111 - let hippo grow into unhappiness, will get a settler after forge finishes.

T112 - last turn of zero slider, should finish optics T120 with enough coin left to upgrade trireme

T115 - Pyramids and SoZ finish somewhere. I have slipped to 3rd in GNP at 130, top is 163.

T116 - Parthenon finishes somewhere. 2pop whip cothon in Hadrumetum.

T 118 - settler out in Hippo, moves in place, will wait to build c6. Start another settler.

T 120 (125AD) optics. Start Math. 3pop whip caravel in Utica. Start caravel in Kerk(south) to 2 pop whip. Upgrade trireme. Settle Leptis 3N1W of Carthage. Zero on slider.

T121 - Hanging Gardens somewhere. 2pop whip caravel in Kerk (not really necessary but I usually have done this). Other 2 caravels start exploring. Running zero slider 1 more turn. I’m going to be slightly late with GS2 I think, bad math in my head.

T 124 - I tried to send my caravels out realistically, knowing I was far north, not just beeline. Met Zara this turn, trade MC for Alphabet and the last turn of Math. He is more than doubling my score, 1278-536 after our trade. I start Calendar. Still 5 turns from GS 2.

T125 - move my caravels and meet Gandhi he’s willing to trade Currency +10 for Compass. I think I should take that, havent met anyone else yet. Trade compass + the 10 I just got from Gandhi to Zara next for aesthetics and Polytheism. I’m holding machinery. Then meet Gilgamesh and he won’t give me anything but Hunting and 10c for metal casting, I don’t take that. He would give me calendar for compass but I can’t bulb yet so I wait.

T126 - meet brennus, he’s already annoyed with me, others are Hindu, he’s Confucianism. Trade compass to giggles for meditation, priesthood, lit and +10. Sell MC to brennus for +20 and now have open borders and he will trade, but not CoL.

T127 - brennus is willing to trade me Monarchy +10 for Compass so I take it. Didn’t meet anyone new. Waiting to go HR until after Astro.

T128 - meet Monty. He’s annoyed, Buddhist, and at war with Gilgamesh. I don’t trade with him.

T 129 - calendar and GS2 comes out. Double bulb but I’m just short. Meet Pericles. He’s also in the Hindu block. He wants MC, Meditation and Compass for Masonry and +40c, I’ll pass. Haven’t closed out the turn, need a little help organizing my thoughts I think. There are trades I think I should make but I’m bad at this part of the game.

 

[Tecumseh1]

Not much good trades yet so hold onto Astro for sure. Do some lopsided trades to get +4 diplo bonus like donating to certain psychos can be good for now.

 

[a pen-dragon]

@sylvanllewelyn

Spoiler :

About colonies, IIRC one needs 3 cities on one landmass to liberate as a colony. Only the big island is sufficiently big for that. Additionally, I want these cities for myself, as they are good production spots with SP + Factories. I already get overseas foreign traderoutes with the continent. Frankly, I think that colonies are so bad that I mostly do not even stop to consider the option. If you want the land grab it, else do not.

About attacking with Tanks, going for Cuirs or cannons is incompatible with settling the islands, so it is infantry+cannons or tanks. Infantry + cannons would have been quicker, but I choose tanks because they move faster and basically never obsolete. You can bring down (almost) anyone with tanks and spies or fighters. Keep in mind that at this point I had peacefully expanded to 20+ cities and was basically in control of the game. The AI having Railroad only matters when you land with few troops and are dependent on reinforcements. If you attack with a sufficient number of tanks from the start it does not matter.

@Build2Much

Spoiler :

IMHO you should whip more. Kerkouane is a size 4 city slowbuilding a Granary, why not just whip it? Utica has unused food, so why not whip and use the food? Also the pig next to Carthage should be pastured, you want to start growing next turn.

It is Cyrus - not Pericles. Giving him an outdated tech (meditation) for 40 is a good deal. IMHO you are trading too much. The AI is only willing to trade you tech if you have gotten less than a certain amount of techs in trades in total, getting cheap useless techs is basically endangering future better trades. Techs I do not think you should have traded (some of them are good techs to research while idling after optics): Meditation, Polytheism, Priesthood, and maybe even Aesthetics, Lit and Math (as you had it partially researched, OTOH you only knew Zara, and he is relatively lenient).

 

[jorissimo]

@Build2Much

Spoiler :

Pretty good Astro date. However, there is some room for improvement in your empire management. I count 5 workers for 7 cities. You want at least 7 workers, more is better. You're slow- building a worker in Carthage. It's better to whip workers, for instance in a city with 4 pop and good food. Kerkouane is a good city for this. A pen-dragon mentioned the pig that is still mined. I assume this was an oversight on your part. You want your capital to be around size 10 at 1 AD. That's definitely possible with Carthage, but you need the pig. Also, there is an unimproved wheat near Kerkouane (I don't know when it popped borders) and no workers near it. Your bpt is not exactly bad but I'm kind of concerned about the fact you're last in GNP with Fin and Char and good land, which suggests the AI really are teching quite fast. Of course, Astro will improve your situation, but still.

 

[Build2Much]

I wake up to comments - thanks guys!

@a pen-dragon

Spoiler :

should have said Greece, then I cant be wrong . Had not whipped yet this turn, but yes whipping the granary. Was working cottages for commerce while stuck with my happy cap and already grown into unhappiness a couple of places. That goes away next turn when I switch to HR and can trade for some happiness as well. Pigs will be pastured as soon as I can move worker(s) there, with 7 happy cap in Carthage i didn’t prioritize it, intentionally have stalled one turn from growth, working 6 cottages and the horses since that had a commerce, slow building workers (my 3rd consecutive is being built now). I also have a couple of warriors already stacked in Carthage so I can grab all the food and grow quickly now that the lid will be off

@jorissimo

Spoiler :

I currently have 6 workers (2 are in the same tile) seventh on the way. Been slow building in Carthage because I’m stuck at size 7 - there is no happiness and i decided not to self tech Monarchy. That changes next turn when i switch to HR, which makes the pigs a priority, will be a couple of turns later than I should be but it has been on my radar, just chopped / cottaged new cities instead. Wheat just popped from Carthage 4th pop, that will be after pigs, currently Kerk is working clam and 3 cottages for Carthage (2 after whip). I’m also somewhat concerned about GNP but it should jump with Astro - I already have 2 cothons built which has not typically been the case and should be a nice additional boost. I’m trying to pay particular attention there, because I definitely think I’ve stalled/stagnated after Astro and that shouldn’t be the case.

Trading questions / comments for anyone:

Spoiler :

So far the only techs I have traded away are Metal Casting and Compass. I have received Alphabet, 1 turn of Math (which allowed me to tech Calendar on the same turn my GS was born), Currency, Aesthetics, Meditation, Polytheism, Priesthood, Literature, Monarchy (made possible by the Priesthood trade). I have 2 level 3 chariots, so I could build the Epic if I want right now, usually have done this in the northern city with iron and I have lots of chops available so probably worth it?

Available to me this turn is Zara - Machinery for 60c and Gandhi Music or CoL (but not both) plus 30c. Zara has 130c available, so that tells me I should probably take his $. I can also get coin from CYRUS for meditation and metal casting which I will do, he wont throw in Masonry which would have opened up the engineering path for trades.

I think I should take the coin from Zara, Music and coin from Gandhi, coin from Cyrus. Am I wrong? I also think I should avoid trading Optics to anyone until someone else techs it. Is this a bad idea?

Thanks all, I think the trade stuff is where I have a real deficiency, especially in these isolation games.

 

[Build2Much]

Update to 600AD. Very familiar spot, I know I “should” feel pretty good from here but I don’t at the moment due to previous failures. I think I’m in a better position with number of cities and growth plan however, hopefully I’m right. Tried to compare with @aitkensam - I’m 2 turns further along but I’m close I think in tech. I have Feudalism and Lit, he had Civil Service, paper and Hunting and bigger cities, especially the capital. My AI seem further along

Spoiler :

almost everyone has machinery, Zara has engineering, a couple have CS. No one but Cyrus went feudalism in my game though. My import/export is also very close to his, must be the earlier Cothons, because I’m not selling any resources.

Guidance from here or telling me I need to go back will be welcome!

Spoiler :

T130 Astro, switch to HR, several whips. I made the trades i discussed previously, except I sold MC to Cyrus for just 10c (all he would give) holding out for more on Meditation.

T132 MoM (Brennus), Schwedagon (Gandhi), TGL (Zara) all built. I’m thinking with MoM and Mids plus his location Brennus is a good target in this game if i can get there quick enough. He is stronger than usual it appears however. I’m now 3rd in GNP at 265. Meditation to Cyrus for 50c. He is pleased. Pigs are pastured in Carthage. Only happiness trade I’ve gotten so far is spices for wheat, Gilgamesh.

T133 finish CoL, start Feudalism, intending to go to Civil Service after that for Bureaucracy. I feel that could be a mistake. Brennus already has Civil Service. Gandhi finishes Philo, Zara also has it. No one wants to give me any happiness. Found Thaenae (c9) in the ice with 2 fish, building culture to start.

T134 sell Calendar to Monty for 40c. He then is willing to trade wine and fur for pig and corn. Everyone is now cautious with me except Zara who is pleased.

T135 Monty would like me to join against Gilgamesh, I decline.

T136 Gandhi will trade gold for pig which I accept.

T137 Monty wants me to cancel with Gandhi. I refuse. He is now at war with everyone except Brennus and me. Zara trades dye for sheep.

T 138 Cyrus asks me to join the fight. I accept. Cyrus and Gandhi are now pleased, Gilgamesh and Brennus are cautious, Zara was already pleased. Cyrus will now trade me HBR, Masonry, Hunting and his 30c for Music. He just got Feudalism apparently, I am still 2 turns away. I check and everyone is now willing to give me HBR. I complete the trade with Cyrus, but let him keep Hunting. I get the circumnavigation bonus.

T 139 trade Music to Gilgamesh for construction, monotheism and 10c. He is pleased.

T140 Feudalism. Start CS. finish HE in Hippo, I’m not ready for Numidians yet though, don’t have hunting or archery, could build a couple catapults, chop a settler or a stable? If I give Gandhi optics and Feudalism he will give me Philosphy or Theology (not both) and 50c (I would decline Hunting which he would also give me). He is not as interested in HBR. He is the only trade partner offering anything of value. i don’t want to trade him optics, but I know that Cyrus will give him Feudalism.

I have not finished this turn.

 

[chinemol]

Is this worth it even with such a short window before obsoletion? And did you manage to get GS out despite all of the GM points?

Not ready to calculate if it was a good decision, seemed wise to get the extra commerce. Obsoleted all my monuments too with astro, but monty traded fur to compensate. Actually got a GS wich I hated (was prepared for a merchant) and half bulbed astro wich I wasn't counting as an option.
Getting CS and other techs was hard, had to put turns on the tech. Trades went kinda fast, but still not a caveman compared the AI's (Astro is the only tech I didn't trade away). Took me some time to contact one of the AI's maybe could have traded better, but once again it looks like a doable scenario. Below is the bug save if you want to check, sure I'm doing many things wrong

 

[a pen-dragon]

Spoiler trades :

I think I should take the coin from Zara, Music and coin from Gandhi, coin from Cyrus.

Sounds good. I want to point out that CoL is more important than music rn, but will probably soon be researched by others. Trade with Gandhi first, as the AI values a tech less if more players have it.

he wont throw in Masonry

As above, this is too cheap to be traded for in most cases, try to tech it yourself.

I also think I should avoid trading Optics to anyone until someone else techs it. Is this a bad idea?

This is a good idea. There is no reason to give away techs and speed them up in return for mediocre stuff. Especially try not to accelerate the runaway.

 

[jorissimo]

Been slow building in Carthage because I’m stuck at size 7 - there is no happiness and i decided not to self tech Monarchy. That changes next turn when i switch to HR,

It's not a problem to grow into unhappiness before Monarchy and stuff. It's optimal, because you would instantly get +3 productive pop at HR (and in this case, more from resource trades), while now you still have to grow to size 10.

I can also get coin from CYRUS for meditation and metal casting which I will do, he wont throw in Masonry which would have opened up the engineering path for trades.

Just taking a random quote here, but it applies to the whole section: you want to avoid trading for cheap techs. The techs you receive from the AI are counted up until they reach a cap at which the AI won't trade anymore techs to you for fear of your becoming too advanced. So that excludes all Ancient techs and also some Classical ones. If you have cheap techs on them, sell them for money, and avoid trading for cheap techs they have on you. Also wait with expensive monopoly techs like Astro if they have nothing good to give for it, their market value will increase when the AI gets better techs. I see you're putting 1 turn of research into techs for better trades, that's a good habit.

 

[aitkensam]

Appreciate you playing to here, looks very familiar and this is where I fail from . A couple of questions/comments from what I can see.

Spoiler :

1. We differ in city placement by maybe a tile on some of them, but looks like I haven’t been regularly making some huge blunder, which is good. Your city spot top left by the copper and crab I am embarrassed to say I never even considered. I have almost always put it on the naked tundra tile 2w1s. Your spot is much, much better for a multitude of reasons. The second one I like that I never consider is Kerkouane. I usually put that city on the plains hill and farm the tile you settled to achieve the same result. Not sure if one is better than another, but you made that spot a priority settling it early, where I didn’t. Your barb city is in a spot that I get suckered into putting a city too early because of the whale. Using your Leptis spot earlier than the coastal spot makes much more sense.

2. It is relatively unique in your game that Zara is on his own with Buddhism and everyone else but Monty is sharing Hinduism (Monty is almost always a lone wolf so that is normal). In 500 years I would expect Gilgamesh and Ghandi to be vassaled and I definitely don’t handle it well. It would be very unusual if that did not happen.

3. Could you share your post-Astro tech path? What techs are you willing to trade and did you avoid trading with anyone? Sometimes I trade with everyone, sometimes I limit it, sometimes Brennus and Monty won’t trade with me. I typically hold Optics / Astro to myself until one of them self techs it but I will trade up to that point on the Astro line.

Thanks!

Spoiler :

I am far from an expert but the main things I thought was different between my game and the 600 AD one you posted was capital size. Mine was above size 10 in the BCs. Don't exactly remember when I stopped growing. I think about 1-2 unhealth. Big size helped work a lot of cottages. My Kerkouane was only really to work more cottages and cos I didn't always need the corn in capital after a while.

Weirdly I'm not trading for any gold. Resources are a bit scarce so busy getting happy and health resources.

In terms of post-astro tech. I traded for maths, alpha, calendar. I self teched some cheap stuff (hunting, archery, masonry). Think hbr, construction, mono, aesthetics were also trades. Then I think I self-teched Currency (275AD), CoL (325AD), Civil Service (425AD), Paper (540AD). I gave away compass and metal casting mostly. I also like to keep people away from optics so haven't given away machinery yet. But if I can get feudalism / philo / music / theology for machinery and something small later then I'll take them. Not urgent for now in my opinion.

 

[Build2Much]

@aitkensam one thing this exercise has shown me is how bad I’ve been about having unworked, improved tiles, especially food. I immediately saw on your map that city had helped the capital in a huge way, and I definitely have a bad habit of leaving too much “room” in my capital’s BFC.

If I ever start this map again, I will go monarchy but get that triangle going around the cottages. I think my best Astro time was actually a monarchy attempt where I switched to slavery and HR on the same turn, but I have also built too many warriors in some of those attempts.

My cottages aren’t as mature and our difference would compound over the next 25 turns, but I’m going to try to figure this out anyway!

 

[Build2Much]

Picking up from where I left off finishing turn 140 (600AD). I’m going to try to focus on growth for the next 20 turns, get some numidians out and farm some xp off my barb city, see where that leaves me at 1000AD.

Went to 1010 AD, will need to pick a target and start the war machine very soon I think, and this is where I get stuck on the naval invasion.

Spoiler :

T 140 cont. - building the stable in Hippo, will get Numidians after I finish CS. Going to be stingy on trades unless it is for coin, want to force them to tech optics and Astro.

T 141 - Zara has 200c that is tempting, and in my games he’s always flush with cash, but I’m not selling optics! Gilgamesh just vassaled to Zara - the monster is growing. Gandhi has gone Free Religion, doesn’t have lib, has Schweg.

T 144 - Gandhi gets Sistine, in great shape for culture.

T 145 - all the Hindus plus Gandhi have feudalism as expected.

T 146 - Civil Service. Switch to bureaucracy. Start hunting.

T 147 - get hunting out of anarchy. Didn’t even know that was a thing. Start archery which is 1 turn at 0%.

T149 - Gandhi asks for a free Optics, refused.

T 150 - Gandhi vassals to Zara. Trade corn to Pericles for sugar.

T 152 - paper. Start selling my map around, get almost 500c. Start Philosophy. Made peace with Monty so I could get his coin.

T 153 - Brennus has a 20 unit stack in Bibracte I can see. And he’s plotting against someone. I’m assuming it is Gandhi/Zara, annoyed with both. Hindu block has guilds.

T 154 - finish Philosophy. No one has paper, so I should have a great shot at lib, but I won’t be able to milk it for a big haul.

T 155 - Zara has 220c available. Trade Philosophy to Cyrus for his map and 40c (everyone else has Philosophy). Zara will trade drama and all his coin for Paper. It’s tempting. I decide to cash in, will buy me two turns of education. He throws in his map. Trade paper to Gandhi for theocracy and Gilgamesh for coin, since they will get it from Zara anyway. Pocket 285c in total, drama and theocracy.

T 158 - drama, paper, theocracy for engineering, map and 20c to Cyrus. Fish for cow to Gilgamesh.

T 160 - Gilgamesh would like Optics, I decline. Buddhism finds me, but that’s monty so not too excited. Monty finally loses a city to Gandhi, those guys are all still at war.

T 161 - (1010 AD) education, need to decide if I’m going lib now for nationalism or if I’ll try for military tradition. Gilgamesh breaks away from Zara. Zara has 35% of pop and 26 % of land area. I’m 3rd in GNP, 449 beakers at 100%. I still have a monopoly on Optics and now I’m the only one with education. Brennus is still plotting and putting 10 spy points on me. I’ve been milking xp out of the barb city - have 3 CR3 catapults now. Will keep milking, will raze when I take it because I don’t like the location. 10 Numidians built so far. Settler coming out of Utica next turn, I’m going to settle far to the east to claim the whale.

Have not closed out this turn, stopping here.

 

[Build2Much]

Played to T 175 (1150AD). I know I am in ok shape if I can get the war machine pumping and keep rolling. Someone help with next steps, please? This is where I fail.

Spoiler :

T 161 continued - Trading paper was probably a mistake, I don’t want to compound it. Starting Lib, to take nationalism.

T 164 - Gandhi wants me to join the battle again, I agree.

T 165 found Tacape c10 to get whale, deer, copper. Gandhi, Gilgamesh and Zara all have education now. Why did i trade paper I’m 3 turns from lib. Monty down to 3 cities.

T 166 micromanaging allows me to finish lib after this turn.

T 167 Zara will give me 355c for optics. I’m going to take it, just got Lib, take nationalism, start Mil Trad. Gandhi has divine right he could trade to Zara for optics, so I take his 110c, rather than let him get it from Zara. Monty is down to 2 cities. Gilgamesh and Gandhi are friendly with me, Zara and Cyrus pleased. Brennus cautious, Monty wont speak to me.

T 168 Monty vassals to Zara.

T172 get a couple more coins for my map. Trade Pig for Banana from Cyrus. He has gunpowder, will not trade it. I am up to 20 Numidians and 5 CR3 catapults.

T 173 Gilgamesh now has gunpowder and will trade it. He wants lib and optics, will add in 90c. Gandhi and Zara already have both techs and don’t have gunpowder, so seems a no brainer to take that.

T174 I now have a woodsman 3 warrior that will become a super medic. Gandhi has Nationalism and Gunpowder, no one has anything to trade him for Nationalism. I can get guilds from Cyrus, everyone has it except me. I wait.

T 175 (1150AD) Gilgamesh vassals to Zara again. He now controls Gandhi, Monty, Gilgamesh. Cyrus would like us to make a defensive pact. He now has education, I still have Astro monopoly and I have Mil Trad to myself as well. I finish off the barb city and raze it, had no buildings and it kills a fish. Get 104c and a worker, plus all the xp I enjoyed. Whip a granary in my double fish city to the north.

Stopping here, not closing out the turn yet. Zara is doubling my GNP, adding UoSankore in 1070AD seems to have boosted him?

I have 5 CR3 catapults and 20 Numidians, scattered to my cities for happiness purposes, intend to upgrade all before an attack. I only have 1 galleon. I have 5 cities that are coastal and whippable for Galleons, a 6th coastal that will grow quick enough and has some production, a 7th that will come on line shortly but won’t help the first war effort. I also have a HE city that can pump out Cuirs and a capital that can do siege/support. And the other internal cities that are whippable but might not grow back that quickly. Whips will definitely hurt the support cottages outside the capital. Happiness will be an issue if I don’t whip when I send out the troops.

Can go for steel and attack at cannons, promoting the catapults and Numidians? Is that waiting too long? I think there are only 2 realistic targets, the best is the lone wolf, or should I go straight for the big guy?

 

[a pen-dragon]

Spoiler :

You should be building troops everywhere.

In other words, if you want a war machine you need to build troops, and not a few ones scattered around, but basically troops everywhere. Focus your efforts. Universities will only slow down your war and are only advisable if you want to tech much further, which for the moment you do not. If there is a moment to go all in on building troops it is right before a war.

Also note that if you want to go for Cuirs, you do not want siege, as it will only slow you down. Cannons are far away and will move slower than a Cuir rush. They would be OK, but you will not be able to take as much land. A Cuir rush is only obsoleted by Rifles (or lots of Grens), not by Oromos, since Cuirs ignore first strikes.

My advice: Whip Cuirs (and only Cuirs) massively, upgrade numidian cavs with the gold you bank, and build a few galleons to ship troops. The only non-troop builds that are justifiable are those that help your cities grow, especially granaries. You do not need to ship your troops all at once.

At this point the only difference to a Cuir rush on a Pangaea is that you have to ship your troops, so if you know how to play these, act accordingly.

As for the target, you do not want Zara to grow anymore. Also Zara will probably develop increasingly fast, so now is a good opportunity. He only has 14 cities himself, Gandhi is not much of a unit builder, and Monty is small, so you would basically be fighting a total of 20 producing cities, without the being able to threaten your island. Scout them, and make your final decision later, the same troops that could go after Zara could go after anyone.

Going for someone else is a backup, since that will not slow down Zara, and you will probably not be able to use Cuirs on Zara later. Still, more land would help.

Maybe declaring on Zara and killing Gandhi would be the best play? This would take out Zara's main trading partner and prevent Gandhi winning a cultural victory. As he will definitely attempt it and put a timer on your game, which could be at a moment where you can not attack Zara.

The main strategy in such a fight is to kill the AI stack in the open and then start taking cities as quickly as possible, which is where Siege shows its weakness.