Shadow Game - Is this just a map *I* can not beat?

[Build2Much]

Picking up from where I left off finishing turn 140 (600AD). I’m going to try to focus on growth for the next 20 turns, get some numidians out and farm some xp off my barb city, see where that leaves me at 1000AD.

Went to 1010 AD, will need to pick a target and start the war machine very soon I think, and this is where I get stuck on the naval invasion.

Spoiler :

T 140 cont. - building the stable in Hippo, will get Numidians after I finish CS. Going to be stingy on trades unless it is for coin, want to force them to tech optics and Astro.

T 141 - Zara has 200c that is tempting, and in my games he’s always flush with cash, but I’m not selling optics! Gilgamesh just vassaled to Zara - the monster is growing. Gandhi has gone Free Religion, doesn’t have lib, has Schweg.

T 144 - Gandhi gets Sistine, in great shape for culture.

T 145 - all the Hindus plus Gandhi have feudalism as expected.

T 146 - Civil Service. Switch to bureaucracy. Start hunting.

T 147 - get hunting out of anarchy. Didn’t even know that was a thing. Start archery which is 1 turn at 0%.

T149 - Gandhi asks for a free Optics, refused.

T 150 - Gandhi vassals to Zara. Trade corn to Pericles for sugar.

T 152 - paper. Start selling my map around, get almost 500c. Start Philosophy. Made peace with Monty so I could get his coin.

T 153 - Brennus has a 20 unit stack in Bibracte I can see. And he’s plotting against someone. I’m assuming it is Gandhi/Zara, annoyed with both. Hindu block has guilds.

T 154 - finish Philosophy. No one has paper, so I should have a great shot at lib, but I won’t be able to milk it for a big haul.

T 155 - Zara has 220c available. Trade Philosophy to Cyrus for his map and 40c (everyone else has Philosophy). Zara will trade drama and all his coin for Paper. It’s tempting. I decide to cash in, will buy me two turns of education. He throws in his map. Trade paper to Gandhi for theocracy and Gilgamesh for coin, since they will get it from Zara anyway. Pocket 285c in total, drama and theocracy.

T 158 - drama, paper, theocracy for engineering, map and 20c to Cyrus. Fish for cow to Gilgamesh.

T 160 - Gilgamesh would like Optics, I decline. Buddhism finds me, but that’s monty so not too excited. Monty finally loses a city to Gandhi, those guys are all still at war.

T 161 - (1010 AD) education, need to decide if I’m going lib now for nationalism or if I’ll try for military tradition. Gilgamesh breaks away from Zara. Zara has 35% of pop and 26 % of land area. I’m 3rd in GNP, 449 beakers at 100%. I still have a monopoly on Optics and now I’m the only one with education. Brennus is still plotting and putting 10 spy points on me. I’ve been milking xp out of the barb city - have 3 CR3 catapults now. Will keep milking, will raze when I take it because I don’t like the location. 10 Numidians built so far. Settler coming out of Utica next turn, I’m going to settle far to the east to claim the whale.

Have not closed out this turn, stopping here.

 

[Build2Much]

Played to T 175 (1150AD). I know I am in ok shape if I can get the war machine pumping and keep rolling. Someone help with next steps, please? This is where I fail.

Spoiler :

T 161 continued - Trading paper was probably a mistake, I don’t want to compound it. Starting Lib, to take nationalism.

T 164 - Gandhi wants me to join the battle again, I agree.

T 165 found Tacape c10 to get whale, deer, copper. Gandhi, Gilgamesh and Zara all have education now. Why did i trade paper I’m 3 turns from lib. Monty down to 3 cities.

T 166 micromanaging allows me to finish lib after this turn.

T 167 Zara will give me 355c for optics. I’m going to take it, just got Lib, take nationalism, start Mil Trad. Gandhi has divine right he could trade to Zara for optics, so I take his 110c, rather than let him get it from Zara. Monty is down to 2 cities. Gilgamesh and Gandhi are friendly with me, Zara and Cyrus pleased. Brennus cautious, Monty wont speak to me.

T 168 Monty vassals to Zara.

T172 get a couple more coins for my map. Trade Pig for Banana from Cyrus. He has gunpowder, will not trade it. I am up to 20 Numidians and 5 CR3 catapults.

T 173 Gilgamesh now has gunpowder and will trade it. He wants lib and optics, will add in 90c. Gandhi and Zara already have both techs and don’t have gunpowder, so seems a no brainer to take that.

T174 I now have a woodsman 3 warrior that will become a super medic. Gandhi has Nationalism and Gunpowder, no one has anything to trade him for Nationalism. I can get guilds from Cyrus, everyone has it except me. I wait.

T 175 (1150AD) Gilgamesh vassals to Zara again. He now controls Gandhi, Monty, Gilgamesh. Cyrus would like us to make a defensive pact. He now has education, I still have Astro monopoly and I have Mil Trad to myself as well. I finish off the barb city and raze it, had no buildings and it kills a fish. Get 104c and a worker, plus all the xp I enjoyed. Whip a granary in my double fish city to the north.

Stopping here, not closing out the turn yet. Zara is doubling my GNP, adding UoSankore in 1070AD seems to have boosted him?

I have 5 CR3 catapults and 20 Numidians, scattered to my cities for happiness purposes, intend to upgrade all before an attack. I only have 1 galleon. I have 5 cities that are coastal and whippable for Galleons, a 6th coastal that will grow quick enough and has some production, a 7th that will come on line shortly but won’t help the first war effort. I also have a HE city that can pump out Cuirs and a capital that can do siege/support. And the other internal cities that are whippable but might not grow back that quickly. Whips will definitely hurt the support cottages outside the capital. Happiness will be an issue if I don’t whip when I send out the troops.

Can go for steel and attack at cannons, promoting the catapults and Numidians? Is that waiting too long? I think there are only 2 realistic targets, the best is the lone wolf, or should I go straight for the big guy?

 

[a pen-dragon]

Spoiler :

You should be building troops everywhere.

In other words, if you want a war machine you need to build troops, and not a few ones scattered around, but basically troops everywhere. Focus your efforts. Universities will only slow down your war and are only advisable if you want to tech much further, which for the moment you do not. If there is a moment to go all in on building troops it is right before a war.

Also note that if you want to go for Cuirs, you do not want siege, as it will only slow you down. Cannons are far away and will move slower than a Cuir rush. They would be OK, but you will not be able to take as much land. A Cuir rush is only obsoleted by Rifles (or lots of Grens), not by Oromos, since Cuirs ignore first strikes.

My advice: Whip Cuirs (and only Cuirs) massively, upgrade numidian cavs with the gold you bank, and build a few galleons to ship troops. The only non-troop builds that are justifiable are those that help your cities grow, especially granaries. You do not need to ship your troops all at once.

At this point the only difference to a Cuir rush on a Pangaea is that you have to ship your troops, so if you know how to play these, act accordingly.

As for the target, you do not want Zara to grow anymore. Also Zara will probably develop increasingly fast, so now is a good opportunity. He only has 14 cities himself, Gandhi is not much of a unit builder, and Monty is small, so you would basically be fighting a total of 20 producing cities, without the being able to threaten your island. Scout them, and make your final decision later, the same troops that could go after Zara could go after anyone.

Going for someone else is a backup, since that will not slow down Zara, and you will probably not be able to use Cuirs on Zara later. Still, more land would help.

Maybe declaring on Zara and killing Gandhi would be the best play? This would take out Zara's main trading partner and prevent Gandhi winning a cultural victory. As he will definitely attempt it and put a timer on your game, which could be at a moment where you can not attack Zara.

The main strategy in such a fight is to kill the AI stack in the open and then start taking cities as quickly as possible, which is where Siege shows its weakness.

 

[Build2Much]

Good, I want to go after the big guy myself so that’s what I’m doing. Little bit of strategy - closest landing spots from my continent are 5 or 6 water moves away depending on where I launch from, so turn and a half to get there, turn and a half back if I dump them in a forest on the edge of his territory. We will call it 3 turns from when I first land until a second load joins the attack. When you say “some Galleons” are you thinking 5 or 10+? Obviously a difference in launch time there. I also will need enough units built when I go with the first wave, I’m assuming 30+ minimum, and if I can get there with galleon / frigate advantage that would be a big help. Map in spoilers. Thanks all who keep checking this out!

Spoiler :

Next question is, am I razing or attempting to hold? I usually don’t raze, but I have usually played at lower levels too. If I land at closest spot, there is a shrine and hanging gardens there. My path would send me to Aksum 3rd. Really can’t get there faster unless I take more ships all the way around and come from the back. He obviously has significant culture boosts if he turtles, so I would hope to take the first city and try to draw his stack to me in the open.

On Gandhi attack, it is possible he will break away from Zara, he does sometimes. If he does I may go there first. Otherwise, the longer I wait on Zara the more advanced I expect him to become. I have had Gandhi break away and took him over (went through Monty in that game, who had not vassaled to Zara), but it is so far away and took too long and I stalled out. I can always stop him before culture with sheer numbers, but Zara is too tough at that point and sends out a spaceship.

Maps of where I assume the attack would go:

 

[Tecumseh1]

Initially you only need enough galleons to take and hold maybe 2 cities, so it's not that many units. If you control the supply route. if they have frigates it's obviously different and you would need to surprise land a big army and risk losing a few empty galleons.

 

[a pen-dragon]

What I mean is that you might want only few (3-4 might be sufficient) galleons to gradually ship over troops and then attack from another player's territory, meaning you have to put less hammers into galleons.

In this case you can always land a small stack into his back lines later, or reroute reinforcements via Brennus and Cyrus.

Before planning where to go you should definitely scout, find his army and plan for where to destroy it (preferably in the open). You might even want a spy or two to track the stack after declaring war, depending in how confident you are in your movement prediction.

Never raze developed cities. There might be some edge cases where razing a developed city might be the right move, but I never consider doing it. At most I might raze a tiny city that ruins (sea)food.

Btw, you can place signs on the map with Alt+S, or zoom out and then draw lines ingame, using one of the buttons above the minimap.

Initially you only need enough galleons to take and hold maybe 2 cities, so it's not that many units. If you control the supply route. if they have frigates it's obviously different and you would need to surprise land a big army and risk losing a few empty galleons.

IMHO this is very risky. The first thing you want to do is wipe his stack and that will require lots of units.

 

[Build2Much]

I’m glad I paused. Because I have played this several times and failed, I really need to think about what I *have not* done yet and where I can gain an advantage I have never had. I have not moved forward. This could be overkill, but I really think the game is won or lost right now, because I’m going to fall behind on tech at the rate this is going.

Spoiler :

1. When I settled islands in other attempts, it was to station troops for an eventual assault on the main continent. That’s why I used the jungle island, which actually becomes good with workshops and has a key late game resource but takes too long. It is 2-3 turns each way from the west to if I go through Brennus and Cyrus, so with 5 galleons it takes 8-9ish turns to get 30 units to that city, even with the circumnavigation bonus (5-6 turns from drop off of first group to the next wave). Then I have to actually get the units down there and Cyrus hasn’t built roads to Brennus so I lose time in jungle too. I would probably need to send workers. If I need a big stack, I think I need more than 5 galleons, especially if I go that way (“attack Gandhi cities first” plan, hope to draw Zara to me).

2. I have very little experience using the espionage mechanics, but in this game no one has put many points on me other than Brennus. I could use the slider to get full view of Zara, Gandhi, Gilgamesh, Monty in 2 turns I think? That would probably be more useful right now than a faster guilds. Spies instead of siege is a possibility then too? I have never attempted anything like this on this map, but is probably more efficient than sending over a spy and hunting in the dark?

3. They have control of AP. When I attack I know they will be able to vote to end the war, I’ll have to be willing/able to say never. That means I’ll probably need to use the culture slider. So I need to pocket coin and upgrade all my Numidians ASAP, further slowing down my path to rifling. Have to cripple him before he can get to rifling.

Anything I’m missing / shouldn’t worry about?

 

[Build2Much]

Only played to turn 179 (1190AD).

Spoiler :

Decided to use espionage slider for scouting to be better informed. Fingers crossed. Targeted Zara, Gandhi, Gilgamesh, Cyrus because I would quickly get city visibility there.

T 177 Cyrus visibility comes first. He has almost nothing military inside his borders, would be a pushover, but I cant see a city he took from Monty. Zara/Gandhi are the GNP leaders, basically identical. Zara climbing quickly. Zara more than double the power graph of anyone else. 0.3 is my comparison on the leaderboard. Zara is teching Printing press, Gandhi constitution, Gilgamesh chemistry, Persia printing press. 1st 3 are teching quickly. Zara has all the food, all the production. Gandhi is culture. Zara, Gandhi and Gilgamesh all have Astro.

T178 found persias stack. It isn’t impressive, but he took Tlaxcala from Monty and he has 18 troops stationed there being crushed by Gandhi/monty culture. Gandhi has 11 units in Delhi, that is his biggest stack. Zara doesn’t seem to have a big stack inside main borders, but I cant see 2 cities he took from Monty yet. I assume that is where the stack is. Gilgamesh not visible. Only putting points on Zara and Gilgamesh now.

T179 found c11 Sabratha NW for crab/copper/coast. Can now see all Zara and Gilgamesh cities. Zara’s stack is in a former Monty city - 21 knights, 6 Maces, 4 Elephants, 5 trebs, 2 catapults, 3 longbow, 3 crossbow, 2 HA, 1 sword, 1 pike. 48 total in that one city, leaving him very vulnerable close to me, but he has 5+ units in every city I think, so at least another 70 units out there (we will call it 120+ total). Most popular unit is Knight. I should probably eliminate the stack before they could become Calvary? He’s on the way to that. He does not have nationalism but Gandhi does and they have split their tech paths so trades will happen. Gilgamesh doesn’t have anything exciting, all melee (mostly maces), longbow/crossbow and trebs/cats.

Turning off espionage, will build wealth to upgrade 20 Numidians to Cuirs, I think I could have maybe another 20 cuirs and 5 galleons in 10 turns, but still need to move them?

WWYD?

 

[jorissimo]

I think I'm starting to understand what's tough about this map. 1200 AD and Zara controls half the map. Not sure why this keeps happening on this particular map though. I guess Zara got blessed with a lot of land? Not sure what I'd do. I think the islands would have led me to tech up as it's possible to reach 14 or 15 cities. But with this diplomatic situation... Tough call.

 

[Build2Much]

I think I'm starting to understand what's tough about this map. 1200 AD and Zara controls half the map. Not sure why this keeps happening on this particular map though. I guess Zara got blessed with a lot of land? Not sure what I'd do. I think the islands would have led me to tech up as it's possible to reach 14 or 15 cities. But with this diplomatic situation... Tough call.

I have made mistakes, but no one has told me I’ve made some massive, game-changing blunder. This is a VERY typical outcome so far.

Spoiler :

He has a ridiculous amount of land to expand into and does. When he shares religion with Gandhi it is the worst case scenario (unfortunately this one) because they are best buddies. He doesn’t always vassal Monty, but that’s kind of the icing on the cake right now. It is possible that Gandhi or Gilgamesh (or both) will break away from him and I could invade there, but that doesn’t do much of anything to slow down Zara really at this point.

I feel like I’ve gotten a great response to this thread from some very good players, hoping at least one more of them takes the challenge and actually plays it, not just tell me what would happen in their game

While I don’t think this run is over, I still feel like there is hope, it is very possible I lost when I didn’t go for it as soon as I got Astro - that is my one thought, that I could have gone monarchy, gotten as big as possible and whipped an army at that point to invade. I have always crashed my economy getting too big too early though.

 

[a pen-dragon]

That stack is about 50 troops, but only 40 non-siege. Siege will get flanked dead in open terrain, so you will need about 50-60 Cuirs to wipe this in one turn. The knights, phants and pikes are the most annoying units, and there is about 25 of them. Since you already have a few cats,you could throw them at the stack.

If you attack from the north-western corner of Persia the stack will take about 6-8 turns to reach you. At that moment you need the specified amount. The problem is that he is currently researching printing press and possibly going for Rifling. If that happens take over Persia and the Celts, grab a few islands and outtech Zara, hoping Gandhi is not too quick.

I guess Zara got blessed with a lot of land?

He got lots of great land due to his capital's location.

 

[Fippy]

Yup imo the Zara attack should be called off.
You just need 10t peace from him later by begging (just 1g it's not about really getting something) when you attack Darius, which must be a quick sweep.
And Celts should be easy cos they won't peace vassal (annoyed with Zara?).

With 20+ cities it's State Property next, and a new plan with an overwhelming amount of units can be made.
Zara and his buddies will have Rifling or Grens..i think that's unavoidable when i look at what they tech right now.

 

[Build2Much]

Quick Diplo update combined with what I know right now and a little of what I know from previous attempts:

Spoiler :

Brennus is worst enemy of Zara
Gandhi is worst enemy of Brennus and Monty

Zara, Gandhi, Gilgamesh, Cyrus all love each other. Gandhi and Gilgamesh are vassals. All of them love me too.

Brennus has 373-110 espionage lead on me. He has TGW and is currently putting +12/turn

Monty has a 187-10 advantage on me, +6/turn

I have a big lead in the others from my investment the last couple turns, but all are now putting points on me for the first time. Zara is putting +12/turn,

I only have +4 total points if I don’t use the slider, so I will lose visibility soon.

I have a caravel on the coast near Brennus. He has 1 longbow, 1 pike, 1 Gallic in coastal city Gergovia, closest spot to me. I will be able to see into Bibracte next turn. There was a 20 unit stack in there a while ago, it is possible to take both cities in the same turn after landing the previous turn (there is a tile 2 from each city I can land on).

I would not need as many troops to take out Brennus, would gain MoM, Pyramids, ToA, TGW in Bibracte. It would give me a foothold and I would not need to whip to the ground.

I have no trade agreements with him other than open borders.

He has silk, spices, fur, marble that could be useful.

He does not have Astro or gunpowder. He does have guilds.

If I attack Brennus, Zara will continue to get stronger. If I cant out tech him to tanks, all of those knights and elephants become helicopters and he will have the coin to upgrade. He becomes secure enough to run research in almost every city, wins via space eventually

 

[Build2Much]

@Fippy

Spoiler :

how concerned would you be about the love fest/ diplo hit if I go Cyrus first? Do you need to wipe him out completely or just get what you can get before he caps and then go Brennus immediately?

I am getting sugar and banana from Cyrus, so not the end of the world if I attack him.

 

[a pen-dragon]

I just want to point out that a well-prepared tank attack will not stop due to gunships (or any other unit). They are a major annoyance, but with factories there is a great production potential. You just have to make sure to have enough units that your attack does not stall.

The problem with Cyrus is that your attack is on a timer. You need to vassal him within 10 turns of attacking (and begging from Zara before the attack) or he will most likely peace-vassal to Zara.

 

[Build2Much]

@a pen-dragon you gave voice to my concern, I still need to get galleons, upgrade my Numidians, build/whip the 2nd wave of troops and actually get there, and he absolutely will peace vassal if given a chance.

If I go Brennus first, he has decent land and if Cyrus stays independent I could hit him with more overwhelming numbers by whipping my newly captured cities? But…I would be risking that he gets rifling first. That would give me the potential for 25+ cities if successful.

I HAVE to prioritize communism if I go this route though.

 

[Fippy]

I wouldn't be concerned about -1 from attacking our friend
And yup you need a very solid force that can take most of his cities in 10t.

There are always less valuable cities, i usually focus on removing annoyances from areas i really want.
(for example the ones close to their valuable capital)

10 turns should be enuf for a capitulation..but if not you should at least get his best stuff

 

[Build2Much]

AP mechanics - if I beg for coin before attacking from the AP leader, are they prohibited from launching the AP vote to stop the war against their religious brother?

 

[Tecumseh1]

I just want to point out that a well-prepared tank attack will not stop due to gunships (or any other unit). They are a major annoyance, but with factories there is a great production potential. You just have to make sure to have enough units that your attack does not stall.

The problem with Cyrus is that your attack is on a timer. You need to vassal him within 10 turns of attacking (and begging from Zara before the attack) or he will most likely peace-vassal to Zara.

Can they peace vassal during a war? I’ve never seen that before.

 

[Build2Much]

Can they peace vassal during a war? I’ve never seen that before.

It can, and I know from experience in this map that anyone in the love-fest will do it past the 10 turn timer. In one attempt the ten turns of peace disappeared early as well and I’m not sure why - maybe AP?