Should Universities Give Liberal Arts Programs?

Sanguivorant

Submitter
Joined
Jun 26, 2012
Messages
1,375
Location
Calgary, Canada
Before I go any further, I do want to point out that I am majoring in economics, which is a liberal art. I am not insulting the liberal arts or anyone who studies them. However, I am planning on switching my major to go into accounting.

Why am I making this decision?

Basically, I believe that most liberal arts programs are either pointless, can be self-taught and are not that in demand because of the two.

I compare the liberal arts programs to the parable of the Ivory tower. Although they often involve intellectual discussion, it is almost impossible to apply them in any practical way, because they are mostly involved in theory or in critical analysis. The focus in liberal arts is identifying the problem, but more often than not, there is no guaranteed solution.

It is true that whoever can provide solutions ends up being very successful, but can you say that every liberal arts student can do the same thing? For example, I doubt there will be another person like John Maynard Keynes who completely changed the way we think about economics.

Most liberal arts programs can be self-taught, and don't require the assistance of the University's resources. For example, if you want to perform scientific research, it often means that you need some specific equipment that you might not be able to afford. So a university helps gather all those wanting to make scientific research and gives them the equipment to do so.

I am taking a political science class, and I found that all I am really doing is reading a book and taking down notes. I read ahead of class, and I often find that the lecture content is just a dumbed down version of what I was expected to read. I can say with confidence that I can pass this class without attending a single lecture. However, I paid for the lecture, so I am going to attend it.

The point is, if I wanted to learn political sciences, all I had to do was just buy the book and read, or rent books relating to the subject from a library. In the past, it was necessary to go to a University to study history, but with the information age, I can research a topic, read books, and then discuss them in public forums like this one, which is essentially what is being done in a University. I do not need to spend four years worth of tuition to become knowledgeable in a subject that could only cost me several trips to the library and an internet connection.

My dad is an engineer, and I can arguably say that he knows a lot about political sciences and economics. He has never studied those in a University, but he just reads books.

My final point is the most common complaint about the liberal arts, that it is often hard to find a job in them. That is again, because these programs are mostly intellectual discussion, and not practical. The STEM programs (Science, technology, engineering, medicine) provide real life examples and situations shortly after learning the theory, and they are in high demand, because they focus on solving problems in real life situations. Being a political scientist, I doubt I can make North Korea a democracy or something like that.

There are a few liberal arts programs which are worthy, such as those teaching different languages. The University excels in being a place that provides an environment for learning a second language. However, majoring in a language alone pretty much does nothing. It has to be accompanied by something else, because if you wanted someone that could speak a certain language, you might as well hire a native speaker. Arguably, even languages can be learned by working in an area that speaks that language and speaking with the locals.

So these are my points. Again, this is not to offend anyone, but I am just placing my opinion on this matter. Can anyone convince me not to switch my major?
 
What's a liberal arts program again? I thought that was a U.S. centric term, but I see you're from Canada..

Well, either way, I looked it up what it actually means. Is this pretty much it?

The liberal arts are those subjects or skills that in classical antiquity were considered essential for a free person to know in order to take an active part in civic life, something that included participating in public debate, defending oneself in court, serving on juries, and most importantly, military service.

If so, I don't see why not. But that seems a rather broad group of programs that seems to include whatever you really would want it to include. So I bet some of those programs deserve to exist, while others don't.
 
Study only to become an academic. Although universities fail to do even that properly these days.
 
I would be aghast if any university eliminated its liberal arts programs. Otoh, proper counseling of students who, almost by definition, don't know what the hell they're going to do with their lives is important. An engineering student who minors in languages & literature is one thing; awarding a bachelor's degree in Medieval French Literature to a student who isn't on a deliberate, considered track into a master's degree program is inane.

I had a friend who was teaching part-time at a fairly prestigious US university tell me she wondered whether awarding liberal arts degrees was ethical. Sending a 22-year-old into the 2015 world with $50,000 in debt and a degree in Comparative Religion might be straightup criminal. That kid will be waiting tables and living at home for the next 3 or 4 years.
 
Warpus.

Liberal arts programs encompass a wide variety of topics, from actual art and architecture to soft sciences such as political science and economics. It also covers languages, literature, history, women's studies and the like.

EgonSpengler.
Liberal arts degrees are a luxury affordable only by those who have the time and money to obtain them. If they are to maintain liberal arts programs in Universities, I say that it should not be allowed to take a loan to pay for its tuition costs.

JollyRoger.
Not everything in STEM is a trade, it just coincidentally provides the skills and qualifications needed to obtain the kind of jobs that are in demand today.

The problem is that by allowing Liberal Arts programs in Universities, and combining that with the popular idea that one must enter University to become successful, you end up with a lot of people who major in something that is pointless, whereas they could have spent that time getting a trade, which would have been much more beneficial.
 
Warpus.

Liberal arts programs encompass a wide variety of topics, from actual art and architecture to soft sciences such as political science and economics. It also covers languages, literature, history, women's studies and the like.

Seems like a huge collection of varying disciplines. I've never seen programs grouped by this term here in Ontario anywhere - which is why I thought it was a U.S.-specific term that they use in their college system.

Either way though, since it contains so many varying programs and disciplines, it seems to me that you can't really say much about them as a whole. Wouldn't we want to look at each one individually and decide whether it's worth teaching or not?
 
Seems like a huge collection of varying disciplines. I've never seen programs grouped by this term here in Ontario anywhere - which is why I thought it was a U.S.-specific term that they use in their college system.

Either way though, since it contains so many varying programs and disciplines, it seems to me that you can't really say much about them as a whole. Wouldn't we want to look at each one individually and decide whether it's worth teaching or not?

That is true, and that is why I did mention that some of these disciplines are worthwhile.

Strange that you do not have this in Ontario. I live in Calgary. There's no bachelors of arts in Ontario? That is what I was mentioning.

Or it could be that Calgary is US contfirmed.
 
JollyRoger.
Not everything in STEM is a trade, it just coincidentally provides the skills and qualifications needed to obtain the kind of jobs that are in demand today.

The problem is that by allowing Liberal Arts programs in Universities, and combining that with the popular idea that one must enter University to become successful, you end up with a lot of people who major in something that is pointless, whereas they could have spent that time getting a trade, which would have been much more beneficial.
I wasn't focused on STEM - you can certainly go the trade school route by majoring in business or taking a liberal arts undergrad on the way to law school. My focus was on your end goal. If you want to make it all about a trade, change the name of the institutions to properly reflect the goal.

Plus, the M in STEM stands for mathematics which seems kind of un-trade-school/less practical to me.
 
EgonSpengler.
Liberal arts degrees are a luxury affordable only by those who have the time and money to obtain them. If they are to maintain liberal arts programs in Universities, I say that it should not be allowed to take a loan to pay for its tuition costs.
I think it's important to distinguish between programs and bachelor's degrees. Part of the purpose of a bachelor's degree, imo, is to provide a well-rounded education (this could be part of a useful definition of the distinction between a university and a trade school, perhaps). I think it's important for an engineer to study economics and anthropology, and spend a semester studying language, food & culture abroad (or whatever).

Likewise, I think a bachelor's degree in anthropology would be useful to someone who's going after a PhD in anthropology, and is going into that field. A high school history teacher probably needs an advanced degree in history, for example, and we need high school history teachers. A bachelor's degree in history, by itself, is basically useless, though. With only a bachelor's degree in history, you're an overqualified bar tender who can't buy a car and a house because of student loans.
 
That is true, and that is why I did mention that some of these disciplines are worthwhile.

Strange that you do not have this in Ontario. I live in Calgary. There's no bachelors of arts in Ontario? That is what I was mentioning.

Or it could be that Calgary is US contfirmed.

Yeah, we have bachelor of arts, but I have never heard the term "liberal arts" here. Maybe it's just something people say when I'm not around. Either way, I have never seen it on any official publication at 2 large universities here, and I've taken history, philosophy, etc. and other such courses before. They've always been in the Social Science faculty .. or Arts. IIRC anyway. Never heard "Liberal arts" except for when Americans were talking about education.

But anyway, that's not what this thread is about, so let me try to say something worthwhile about the actual subject. I think that most of these subjects are worth studying, but I wouldn't be against re-examining exactly how much funding they get compared to how many potential jobs exist in that field.

Learning for the sake of learning is fine too, but we can't have too many academics running around. Academics be crazy.
 
Free market, universities should offer whatever people are willing to pay for.

The problem is that when people choose for Liberal Arts programmes, they are teached such Critical theory BS disguised as "critical thinking against authority", which in reality unwittingly seeks to destroy the very fabric of society. Individual choice may and should be restricted if society at large is at risk.
 
The problem is that when people choose for Liberal Arts programmes, they are teached such Critical theory BS disguised as "critical thinking against authority", which in reality unwittingly seeks to destroy the very fabric of society. Individual choice may and should be restricted if society at large is at risk.

Allow lawsuits against professors/universities for teaching lies.
 
Allow lawsuits against professors/universities for teaching lies.

Well, the problem is a regulatory capture of sorts. If those that tell the lies are also calling the shots, it is hard to expose them.

Perhaps it is hopeless at this point.
 
Should we just change the name of the institutions from Universities to Trade Schools?

Either that or make it so universities only offer liberal arts programs and have other programs divided up between trade schools, vocational programs, and technical colleges.
 
I don't think that the "Free market" should decide anything here, but I'm not sure if that comment was a joke or not.

Either way, society helps pay for this stuff AND it exists for the sake of the public good, so profits should not be the #1 concern.
 
I wonder if there is any evidence that these arts students are worse paid in the end of the day than others? In Cambridge there are a lot of very well (read expensively) educated people studying classics, basicly Latin and Greek. I guess that is what you would define as liberal arts? I was always a little scathing of them, thinking that is was wasting a significant chance to learn something useful. However these people generally go on to have very successful careers, making up a large percentage of the board rooms of the large companies. They all held that the degree "taught you how to think", whatever that means. Their subsequent pay would seem to bear this out.
 
I was always a little scathing of them, thinking that is was wasting a significant chance to learn something useful. However these people generally go on to have very successful careers, making up a large percentage of the board rooms of the large companies. They all held that the degree "taught you how to think", whatever that means. Their subsequent pay would seem to bear this out.

Those are the lucky ones that probably had parents who owned a business/company, and all they have to do is inherit that.

Connections matter a lot as well in job finding, and some have that opportunity.

Anyhow, that is the side of the last argument. I am pretty sure those with arts degrees can get employed, but probably not as easily in something that is related to their degree.

How about my argument that one can learn any of these arts subjects by themselves? Do you guys believe that it is possible, or must I attend classes to be proficient in a topic like history?
 
Those are the lucky ones that probably had parents who owned a business/company, and all they have to do is inherit that.
Sorry, but I can't just take your word for it. I'd need a statistic that says the majority of humanities students (that go on to be successful) have rich parents to begin with. (note middle class not rich)

Connections matter a lot as well in job finding, and some have that opportunity.
The same can be said for any field.
Anyhow, that is the side of the last argument. I am pretty sure those with arts degrees can get employed, but probably not as easily in something that is related to their degree.
It's hard to get something 'related to your degree' when your degree itself is intentionally vague and unfocused on any particular thing.

How about my argument that one can learn any of these arts subjects by themselves? Do you guys believe that it is possible, or must I attend classes to be proficient in a topic like history?

The problem is the precise same thing could be said for many 'trade school' STEM stuff. I'm learning to get CCNA certified from Cisco. I'm taking classes at my junior college to help me along the way. Do I need to take these classes? No. I can read the books at home and pace myself until I'm ready to take the test and pass, and start my career. Why do you think people can only teach themselves humanities subjects, but all of a sudden people magically cannot teach themselves STEM subjects?
 
Back
Top Bottom