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Single Player bugs and crashes - After the 23rd of September 2013

Discussion in 'Bugs and Crashes' started by strategyonly, Sep 24, 2013.

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  1. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Ok, so it's under normal view, not bshort and I suppose the problem you're pointing at is that I pretty much made all plot views for units ONLY oneline because the volume of information being displayed on plot information for even one unit overwhelms the display and is completely useless as a result. Is that pretty much the sum of it? And is that why you're asking for:

    What's the point of any display that overwhelms the hover panel? It's going to hide critical information simply in the fact that you can't scroll in that panel. If you show all information on a unit the help hover will be overwhelmed (with the majority of units anyhow.) and this to me sounds like it would conceal the outcome display anyhow.

    Might I suggest that the outcome information that you're intending to display be moved to the combat help hover or rather one of the pages there instead? It seems to me that's what we're really looking for anyhow right? If I'm not mistaken it's only by combat that you can get an outcome result such as what you're talking about is supposed to be displaying so shouldn't it be under the combat help hover anyhow? Given that its a detail regarding combat - not something about the plot.


    I'm not putting it past myself to be a little off as to what I'm thinking about how you're saying the outcome display mechanism is working though. I've never actually seen it in game anyhow and always wondered how I was supposed to.
     
  2. AIAndy

    AIAndy Deity

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    It is just supposed to tell you what you get from killing something (usually some animal) and when you are interested in that there is usually only one unit on a plot (the animal). So I guess either displaying that info as standard when there is only one unit or on the combat estimation hover is fine (though that one actually has considerably more info than what is displayed for a single animal now).
     
  3. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I'm looking for where you're able to specify this information comes up on hovering over a potential opponent and I'm not finding it. You're usually good at utilizing unexpected processing routes to get to a given result so I'm probably just not finding it because I'm looking where I would expect to find it. I found this under 'void CvGameTextMgr::setUnitHelp(CvWStringBuffer &szString, const CvUnit* pUnit, bool bOneLine, bool bShort)' under 'if (!bShort)' under 'if (bNormalView)' under 'if (!bOneLine)' (which all correlates to what you're saying here):
    Code:
    				//Outcome Missions
    				CvOutcomeListMerged mergedList;
    				mergedList.addOutcomeList(pUnit->getUnitInfo().getKillOutcomeList());
    
    				for (int iI = 0; iI < GC.getNumUnitCombatInfos(); iI++)
    				{
    					if (pUnit->isHasUnitCombat((UnitCombatTypes)iI))
    					{
    						UnitCombatTypes eCombat = (UnitCombatTypes)iI;
    						mergedList.addOutcomeList(GC.getUnitCombatInfo(eCombat).getKillOutcomeList());
    					}
    				}
    What I'm NOT seeing is where this
    is somehow adapting the display.

    If you're getting any of the display from void CvGameTextMgr::setUnitHelp(CvWStringBuffer &szString, const CvUnit* pUnit, bool bOneLine, bool bShort), the only reason you'd be getting it coming up at all is if you're hovering over your own unit so how can you ALSO be hovering over an opponent unit at the same time?

    EDIT: Wait... ok, you're saying if ONE of your units is selected and you're looking for information on the opponent unit then that's when getKillOutcomeList() will display the outcome of a battle between your unit and that one. And since I've made it impossible to get as much information on opponent units this has been disabled. So to port this over to the combat help hover would be a bit of a REwrite rather than a simple move of the existing code. hmm... that's more complicated than I thought it would be. It may be beyond my ability to follow the way you refer to the outcomes to derive this information enough to move it over. But I'll look at least and see if I can make heads or tails of it enough to do so.

    Side note: While clever, as a player I would never have intuitively suspected to derive further useful information in this manner - I'd have expected to find it in the combat help hover in the first place. That's where I'd expect to find any information regarding a conflict between the selected unit and the unit I'm considering doing battle with.
     
  4. Faustmouse

    Faustmouse Deity

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    When they work as teachers, why would they give :commerce: rather then :science:?


    It is not a "loss" for your nation is it just a "not gain" of it, which means 0. These slaves can only be settled in your city from captetives. So they origin from another nation. If they have the potential to be a great artist: bad luck. You don't actively lose :culture: from that, all you do is just not get any more :culture:.



    True, but the same is true or captured Warlords and such.
     
  5. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    @TB,
    As it stands now when you build a new unit it's very hard to tell what you are actually getting from each promotion. In part I'm trying to remember what each promotion gives (especially those like Bamboo armor which gave multiple) and then add them up. So it's become a guessing game of sorts. While the AI "Knows" what each promo does, I do not. Definite advantage AI.

    JosEPh
     
  6. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    They would work as teachers IF the nation was dedicating its commerce to research, right? Commerce means Research, Culture, Espionage and Gold at the nation's option based on the sliders.




    You don't feel that a slave based culture would potentially move backwards where culture is concerned? I would think that if ANYTHING could cause culture to erode and move backwards (culture being the general appreciability of a nation's artistic signature) it would be a culture where most people don't have the right to express themselves freely.





    No argument there.

    Ok, so I'm playing devil's advocate here but I must admit that between your arguments and those my wife has made I'm not going to 'stick to my guns'. As a sales person I sometimes have that mentality to 'rebuttal to death' in support of any position I'm taking. If y'all feel it's irrational to have the negative commerce and would instead like to see it expressed as negative gold I'm not against that change.

    Not sure how you wouldn't be seeing the breakdown of promotions as you're selecting them on a new unit. Are you complaining about the way they compile their values into the previous ones on the same promotionline? Or am I reading too strongly into 'build a new unit' and you're talking about trying to judge the value of opponent units in the field with the plot hover that isn't giving you all the info you were able to previously obtain?

    If you're looking for totals, try using... I think it's CTRL... when right clicking over an opponent unit to get additional combat factor totals like total withdrawal etc... Just the combat hover alone without any hotkeys will tell you how much added combat str % they have and such.

    In short, explore the different ways to bring up information and you should find there's no lack of info - it's just condensed and so that the info isn't overwhelming and therefore hiding even more important information (in many cases the NAME of the unit itself) it's no attempting to deliver it 'all at once' but rather through hotkeys.

    And if some of the inability to get pure information on enemy troops is making for a + for the AI, that's a VERY good thing considering how many game elements are a plus for the player due to insufficient AI programming. Helps to even the field a little. The AI may be able to see all that information but that doesn't mean it will use it in as advanced a way as a player would so it certainly has its own handicaps.
     
  7. Faustmouse

    Faustmouse Deity

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    we DO have a Slave Specialist that gives pure :science:....

    MOST prople? It starts as soon as you add one Slave to your 100 Pop megacity... What would you otherwise do? Imagine you didn't capture this slave. Your :culture: would be the sum of your populations creativity. Then you have your slave and force him to work in a Stone Quarry. Why would you get LESS :culture: then? It just doesn't make any sense. Even if 1000 Slaves work in your Quarry, they don't sabotage your nations artists. The only thing that could considered as "loss" in :culture: is that you don't allow your slaves to freely express themself. But that is, as I stated, not an acutal loss but just a not-gain.

    Why not? If you capture a Warlord or even a General, they can join your forces and LEAD them. Even against their motherland. Why don't they have a negative :culture:? Why hasn't ANY unit a negative :culture:? They all are fighting rather then contribute to your nations total culture... And as a General who leads your troops, he has way more power/knowledge that he can sell to your enemies, and he doesn't have any penalty for :espionage:...
     
  8. AIAndy

    AIAndy Deity

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    Correct.
    It might be a simple move.
     
  9. Harrier

    Harrier Deity

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    Yes I had.

    Could I suggest you still display a pop-up. (it helps new players) I only realised I had banditry when I got my next civic and went to see what it gave.

    The yes button could be removed or grayed out - so it can't be selected. This way you can see the big picture or say no.

    If you could also show in the pop-up the number of turns before you could select the new civic, that would be useful too.

    Another way would be to delay the pop-up until it could be selected.
     
  10. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    No nation has ever had more slaves than free men. Culture loss due to the majority not being able to express themselves should be represented in the civic choices already.

    Slaves are always a positive thing for the owners (the nation's rich members), the slaves would usually not be a part of the nation if free (captured in other lands), the only real negative i see is that they should increase revolution status or cost some money to keep alive, and content (content meaning you have to pay for guards to watch, punish and guide the slaves).
     
  11. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    This is probably the argument that holds the most merit to me that tells me to concede. If you're continuing to debate purely to 'pick my brain' and see why I only partially agree however, it's because I feel that every person is interconnected. If you enslave one you will all share in a part of that experience. Your culture dims if you enslave due to the basic repulsive nature of it. I could probably go on and on with weak side-arguments here but again, I'm going to not so much say I outright agree that the cost should be gold as to say I no longer feel like resisting that movement because I can see how irrational it can appear to players to have slaves costing a base commerce (and how counterintuitive a situation it can setup.)



    When I said "no argument here" I was saying 'I agree with you' not 'your point makes no sense'! :crazyeye:

    Another thing I can do that would be much easier in the meantime would be to move outcome displays to an isolation that excludes the !bOneLine check - but it's going to REALLY highlight ALL outcome abilities on units - to a fault I think. For now, it's the simple way to go. That buys me a bit of time to try to learn some things about your programming structures that I don't currently understand enough to build a text string from your generic programming.

    See... the big difference when putting it into the combat context is that it should be displaying YOUR unit's outcome possibilities against THAT unit rather than THAT unit is displaying the outcome possibilities against itself from whatever unit happens to be selected. Vice versa should show too... its outcome possibilities towards you should be shown also. So that's an honest rewrite from go on the outcome text call and the way you go about those are so fragmented and utilizing methods I struggle to follow.

    For example: mergedList.addOutcomeList begins the process of building the display. Then I go there to add OutcomeList and find that the variables that determine the amount of outcomes are generated in some other function and on and on like this and I get lost in the maze of function calls until I've traced my way through it 10-20 times. Then if I look at it again the next day I'm starting all over at the maze doorway. It intimidates me to even ATTEMPT to work with it.

    I suppose if I were a patient programmer who charts out the flow charts of all the processing I work with it might make the structure easier to work with... I recall a friend of mine in his first year of programming schooling being taught to do this.



    Sorry man... I gotta break down some of these statements and embrace the joy of argument for a minute - I'm not really doing so with an agenda anyhow since I think I'm fairly convinced of the ultimate point of the argument from your side anyhow but...
    Looks like historically all manner of population percentages have existed... 30% being common but also as high as 90%. This document was one interesting one outside of the Wikipedia page on slavery. It mentions many historical civilizations and give some average population percentages that were enslaved.

    Slavery is no longer a civic and the greater the population enslaved, the more the drain.

    In and of itself debatable. People tend to spoil and become selfish, lazy, sucked into power mongering and self-gratification when they have such power over others. It's to say that the pursuits of slave owners tend to move away from the benefit of the community and purely into the benefit of self (which often still benefits the community as it often drives commerce - but not in any way that compares to an actively competing company.) Am I REALLY suggesting its a bad thing for the individual whom has obtained wealth and power over others, particularly when earned by birthright rather than merit? Yes. Most assuredly. The cost is just harder to realize it's being paid. Struggle is where most innovation is born. The privileged stagnate.

    I don't recall that there was a mass migration to Africa that should've then ensued after the Emancipation Proclamation... Honestly though it really would depend on how long the generations of that family have been enslaved.

    Note to DH: this would mean that after a while we should allow the data on what unit a military slave was before being captured to be 'forgotten'.

    Being as this is the easiest effect to understand for most players observing and interacting with the game I can agree that this may be the best way to encapsulate the cost of a slave.
     
  12. AIAndy

    AIAndy Deity

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    Ah, but then you don't really need to understand the interior workings unless you want to change the text that is generated itself.
    The mergedList stuff just merges kill outcome lists from different sources on the same unit into one list (as you could have some outcomes on different unit combat types and some on the unit type).
    Finally it runs the display text generation on the resulting list for a given killing unit (the killed unit determined the lists to merge).
     
  13. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    If it's to be moved to a combat help display then the way it defines the opponent unit would have to change and I'd imagine we'd want both your outcomes and their outcomes displayed (under another hotkey page anyhow.)

    To me it seems like we'd have to do a complete rewrite for this adjusted purpose.

    Ok, that helps to know. I'm sure I'll have more confusions to bring up with you if I start delving into it deeper. For now I'm opting with the 'quickfix'.
     
  14. ChaoticWanderer

    ChaoticWanderer Warlord

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    seems one of my caravels got guerrilla i dont think hill warfare works well with ships.
     
  15. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    Not my point, I meant general personal freedom should already be represented in the civic choices. There is no rule against slaves expressing themselves or having freedoms, slavery can be liberal or not liberal just as anything else.
     
  16. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Technically we don't have "freedom of speech" in Australia only the polies do, and only when they are talking in Parliament. The defamation, libel and slander laws are very strong and there is nothing in any of the laws of the land that gives us that right. Things are changing but it is still not a right.
     
  17. Filochard

    Filochard Chieftain

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    the Heroic II promotion still give a golden age even if you're in golden age (normaly it was tweaked in rev 6974)
    I play with last svn, tell me if you need a save
     
  18. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    Repeatable CTD

    I still get a reap . . CTD with this one, new save and mini attached.


    EDIT: Also this 2nd game(ZuluPM.zip) is taking 10 times longer to next turn, nothing should be over 1 minute.
     
  19. alberts2

    alberts2 Emperor

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    That CTD an old one and neither Thunderbrd or myself where able to fix or fully understand it.
    With what revision did you start that Game?
     
  20. Harrier

    Harrier Deity

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    SVN 7013.

    Pressing Alt S add a sign to the map. The sign only remains visible for that turn. It is removed from the map next turn.
     
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