Single Player bugs and crashes v35 plus (SVN) - After the 18th of August 2014

I feel your pain Dancing. Honestly with the amount of metals and stone that are found in peaks, it's rough getting obsidian, stone, copper, and even iron early, but at least there are the national smelters for the metals and trainer for horse. I would love to see nationals for stone and obsidian and perhaps something else I'm forgetting since I'm mired in the wonderful world of broken Modern things.

On the worker front many issues that are trivial to fix, unlike peaks.

Modern /clone/android workers cannot build manufacturing complex improvements when the Tech Manufacturing is researched. Just need to update the worker's build authorizations.

I mentioned this in ideas but meh, it's a bug.

Modern work boats and their upgrade the constructor ship are unable to build Sea mills, again because the units are not enabled to build said improvements. Same deal, the sea workers just need to be enabled is all.

No workboats are able to build tidal harnesses either. The language suggests a 3rd party platform unit akin to the Offshore Platform or simply add the harness to the sea worker build lists. Obviously, just adding it to the modern workboat's and constructor ship's list of builds is much easier.


Cheers!
-Liq
 
EDIT: In retrospect, I believe I may have misread the actual crash spot in the minidump. I see the problem you're pointing at. Strange it causes trouble on one system and not another but yeah, clearly this was not a correct modification to solve anything.

Well, at least I can confirm it now works on my game :)

A few other things that I noticed lately:

1) TXT_KEY_BUILDING_BOAR_MYTH_EFFECT has no English translation

2) When changing capital, the Worldview - Slavery does not move together with the Palace. I can build it again for e.g. with a Captive Civilian.

3) Rodnovera spread rate as a non-state religion (at least on Free Church) is crazy fast. All my 70 cities have got it in about 100 turns.

4) EventSigns PlotSigns.removeSign() failed to find a caption for Player X at ... every time Colonist builds city
 
2 issues:
1. Ballista elephant graphics problem. After defeating a 16 str War Wagon the elephant disappears leaving only a floating "saddle/rider".

2. New (freshly built) Caravels get multiple Land promotions before adding normal promotions.

Screenies below.

JosEPh
 
The recent change of C2C_ROUGH_BOMBARD_VALUE_MODIFIER to -25 seemed to have helped a bit, until I stumbled over these three AIs...

Any ideas of what else I can try to change to minimize siege use even more? Feels like we're trying to treat the effects, not the cause.
Would it be too extreme to enforce some national limits on siege unit counts based on number of cities?
 

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1)Why would it be causing issues on some machines but not mine nor my wife's?

2) This was a debug to avoid a crash that was taking place because result was unevaluatable when returned.

3) It worked to avoid the crash I was having.

Still, I'm sure you understand more about this portion of code than I do (not being sarcastic here - I really don't fully understand this FFreeList business!) Happy to revert it. Hopefully we can find the crash again and I can let you look into it. I would've done that initially but the problem came up in an MP game.

Again, don't get me asking questions to mean that I think you're wrong... I suspected this spot. But I couldn't verify it was causing any problem on my end at all.



EDIT: In retrospect, I believe I may have misread the actual crash spot in the minidump. I see the problem you're pointing at. Strange it causes trouble on one system and not another but yeah, clearly this was not a correct modification to solve anything.

The reason why it was working only on your side might be that you disabled the multithreading. The documentation for the EnterCriticalSection function explains that.
 
It is no good. I can either make the mountain mine available anywhere there is a resource or I can make it valid only on Peaks but not registered as vicinity bonus. The XML is fine at it is currently.

So expect it is something in the vicinity code, t is probably relying on the bonuses making the improvement valid.
I suspected there would be need to write some unique code that would enable them properly. As you've found, the Peak restriction is more of an enablement for peaks while the Bonus Makes Valid tag makes it possible to build the improvement wherever the bonus exists but is also the key to making the improvement access the bonus. That's basically all vanilla programming and they had been able to stay within those established limitations.

I'm thinking it'll take an additional tag to sort it out properly. Or we could just abandon the mountain mine entirely and re-enable mine, quarry, and other improvements to be built on peaks.


2. New (freshly built) Caravels get multiple Land promotions before adding normal promotions.
Are you pointing at the promotions they can select or the free promotions they start with. It looks like the ones they can select are valid for naval units but I did see a few odd ones that may only impact land units in their freebies. I MAY be able to identify them from the pics but it would be easier if you could say which ones they are. I noticed Tattoos - not sure if that would be valid for both. Pankraton - again not sure. What were the other two? Martial Arts was one right? That's not too valid I don't think (then again doesn't do anything to harm them either.)

The recent change of C2C_ROUGH_BOMBARD_VALUE_MODIFIER to -25 seemed to have helped a bit, until I stumbled over these three AIs...

Any ideas of what else I can try to change to minimize siege use even more? Feels like we're trying to treat the effects, not the cause.
Would it be too extreme to enforce some national limits on siege unit counts based on number of cities?
The modifier could only change the percentage of how much siege should be used in a city attack stack. And based on observations, it works brilliantly except that in the earliest wars I saw they weren't bringing enough to continue the attack past the first city which may be fine for the first wars and would clear up with non-self-sacrificing siege weapons.

What you're showing is another issue entirely and from what I've seen in my games so far (which haven't encountered this issue like this) there's a few possibilities:
1) These siege units are somehow coming up as valid for roles they probably shouldn't be. What role that would be is hard to say without watching their behaviors more. City defense perhaps? The particular siege unit that's being shown should be checked in the xml to see what the AI types it has set are.

2) I captured quite a few siege weapon units with ambushers in this last game. How the AI would work with such captives I don't know. Spreading them all over their lands would be strange. Having each start their own new city attack stack would be strange but something I could kinda see happening. (though it shouldn't and would be a very bad spot in the code if they do.) It's possible they pick up an AI that behaves in this odd way you show.

3) It's possible that better developed nations than I've seen in my games reach a point where they keep thinking they need more attack stacks. If they keep seeding new attack stacks it might produce something odd like this. I know the spot in the code under some suspicion for this. But I'd need to see if that's the issue.

Is there any way to tell if they are building all of these siege or if they could possibly be captured? Are they pooling together into many stacks? What's the further behavior of these things?



I can tell you though, the worst problem the AI has at the moment is the way it leaves itself vulnerable to a dominant strike force and/or criminal onslaught. It builds things that can see them, sure, but while it appropriately reacts to pull in its workers, it ignores that even its primary units may be vulnerable to destruction if caught outside its cities. It places its dogs around the land rather than pulling them in, making them killable. It's priorities don't change appropriately to combat the situation before moving on to other goals. It would take a LOT of work to resolve but what it should be doing is as soon as it gets attacked or has a plot razed by an invisible foe is build up a response force if it doesn't have one. There are lots of unit options for a proper response force but I think it would take a complex new set of AI types to pull it together effectively. The AI has been needing a Homeland Defense military initiative for a while now anyhow.

The problem is, too, that this method needs to work differently than the brokerage and there is an element to the brokerage that needs to be halted when a nation is being attacked by invisible HN units from within. When a brokered unit is built, it immediately starts running off to go to the point where the unit that brokered it is situated. This means they can end up sending an endless herd of lemmings into the jaws of powerfully promoted Strike Teams lying in wait for them, accomplishing nothing but further pillaging and xp gain for those Strike Teams. If they were building units even to generate a response team this could still end up being what happens to them - the stack never gathers because it keeps getting killed enroute to the gathering point. So they need to pick the ONE city that the response team will be built from, build all units there, and not move units out of the city until that stack is formed and ready to rock.

And in the meantime, the strongest unit that has been killed within the borders should become the measuring strength for what is allowed to be outside of a city within their own borders until a clean sweep has taken place.

A clean sweep would enforce that a check for invisible units (to the extent of the best invisible types they can produce units to see) has been made on all national plots in the same segment that an invisible attack took place has been made before allowing the rest of the AI to behave as normal.

If they find anything lurking around where they can't get at it like a peak or a city, they would build and assign a unit that can see it to stay as close to it as possible, in as defendable position as possible (a city optimally) and to try to find the unit if it runs off. Once the response team has swept the rest of the area, it can come back to attempt a quarantine of the enemy, hoping to make it impossible for the foe to escape or move at all without being destroyed.

Then we can work on the cops taking down criminals in a city thing.

This is a seriously complex AI suggestion of course. Something I'm not up to now or any time soon. But a few of its measures could be adopted at least. They're REALLY stupid once you've established an invisible/HN unit dominance in their lands. The City Defenders just walk out of the city to be killed. The Lemming effect. Yes, Healers, but it gets down to how the brokerage works and applies to most units.

If they need to respond by building the best anti-Invisible/HN units they have and putting those units on every plot before they can move on to other things (and if those units are getting killed, just give up on building units at all for a while)... that would be better at least.

Anyhow... it's a problem for them and a complex one.
 
The reason why it was working only on your side might be that you disabled the multithreading. The documentation for the EnterCriticalSection function explains that.

Ok, while that documentation made as much sense as my cat when he tries to tell me complex things about his thoughts I THINK I get it a little. I have not developed any understanding of multithreading at all sadly. That may be why even reading that link in full didn't give me a clue that multi-threading being off would do this.

But you're right of course. I had multi-threading off. The property solving multi-threading at least is not compatible with simultaneous MP games. If I recall, I remember you saying something about some multi-threading being setup to detect an MP game and turning itself off in code but apparently that wasn't working for property solving at least.

Ok, now that I know this it makes a lot more sense.


I wish I could explain more about what was happening that prompted the bad debug in the first place though.
 
1) These siege units are somehow coming up as valid for roles they probably shouldn't be. What role that would be is hard to say without watching their behaviors more. City defense perhaps? The particular siege unit that's being shown should be checked in the xml to see what the AI types it has set are.

2) I captured quite a few siege weapon units with ambushers in this last game. How the AI would work with such captives I don't know. Spreading them all over their lands would be strange. Having each start their own new city attack stack would be strange but something I could kinda see happening. (though it shouldn't and would be a very bad spot in the code if they do.) It's possible they pick up an AI that behaves in this odd way you show.

3) It's possible that better developed nations than I've seen in my games reach a point where they keep thinking they need more attack stacks. If they keep seeding new attack stacks it might produce something odd like this. I know the spot in the code under some suspicion for this. But I'd need to see if that's the issue.

Is there any way to tell if they are building all of these siege or if they could possibly be captured? Are they pooling together into many stacks? What's the further behavior of these things?

For my game I have enough espionage to see what's happening. All cities of the most advanced AI (from those three) are building siege stacks. Their capital is at size 53, has 42 healers inside and building 40 new battering rams in the build queue. I see another city of size 29 with 54 healers in it.
I suppose it would have made sense to build Research, even if they haven't built all the possible buildings yet.
What would happen if we were to enforce a maximum number of siege units? Would they start building melee or archers?
 
For my game I have enough espionage to see what's happening. All cities of the most advanced AI (from those three) are building siege stacks. Their capital is at size 53, has 42 healers inside and building 40 new battering rams in the build queue. I see another city of size 29 with 54 healers in it.
I suppose it would have made sense to build Research, even if they haven't built all the possible buildings yet.
What would happen if we were to enforce a maximum number of siege units? Would they start building melee or archers?

Sounds like they are overbuilding city attack stacks then. A quick check on the UnitAI settings on those siege units may be appropriate as well though just to make sure they aren't being built for a different purpose than the one they should be able to be built for.

The answer to your question is that it could inhibit the AI and potentially get it stuck trying to accomplish something it will never be able to accomplish.

The healers ... I suspect you were running this game before the recent change. Disease control balance is a bit out of kilter though and that could still create some overbuilding of healers. From what I can see in playtests, it's going to be necessary to make the anti-disease promos move up a notch and be available sooner.

Interestingly, the healer overbuild and the siege overbuild may have been feeding into each other. The stack wants to be a particular percentage siege and with too many healers eating up the rest of that percentage, they would just keep building siege to get them up to the right percent threshold and then healers to compensate for the siege and then siege to compensate for the healers and so on. This cycle should be broken in a running game but will lead to absolutely ginormous stacks until it clears itself of the issue. At this point, the stack will call for 25% less siege and only 1/3d the healers so surely that will clear up the issue.

But if they are not just building for one stack and are building for many... I think we'll need to see how more cleanly reset (new) games handle the adjustments to see if that's an issue.
 
Originally Posted by JosEPh_II View Post
2. New (freshly built) Caravels get multiple Land promotions before adding normal promotions.
T-brd wrote:Are you pointing at the promotions they can select or the free promotions they start with.

The Freebies, that's why I wrote "New (freshly built)".

Pankraton and Martial Arts are from Helenism and Taoism. Tattos from the Tattoo Building.

But why would Naval Units be assigned Land Promos? Missing tag(s)?

Can't say yet if they are helpful for Naval Combat.

And if you double click the screenie it gives you a full screen pic.

JosEPh
 
The recent change of C2C_ROUGH_BOMBARD_VALUE_MODIFIER to -25 seemed to have helped a bit, until I stumbled over these three AIs...

Any ideas of what else I can try to change to minimize siege use even more? Feels like we're trying to treat the effects, not the cause.
Would it be too extreme to enforce some national limits on siege unit counts based on number of cities?

Another reason for so many Rams is because the upgrade cost to go to trebechet or next level up for Ram is Expensive. Just like Upgrading a healer to Apothecary 520+ :gold:. :crazyeye: :mad:

JosEPh
 
The Freebies, that's why I wrote "New (freshly built)".

Pankraton and Martial Arts are from Helenism and Taoism. Tattos from the Tattoo Building.

But why would Naval Units be assigned Land Promos? Missing tag(s)?

Can't say yet if they are helpful for Naval Combat.

And if you double click the screenie it gives you a full screen pic.

JosEPh

A single click is sufficient. And yeah, I did but I didn't look closely enough at the help text display.

So pankraton and Tattoos are capable of providing a bonus to those units. Pankraton gives a number of bonuses that would never apply. Tattoos... I suppose it makes some sense still though I might advocate it should only be valid for melee units since it would take being up close to the opponent to give them the impression that you're 'hard core' which if I'm remembering right is the reason for the combat bonus.

Martial Arts would have no value to a naval unit.

So basically the rule of thumb is that a promo can be declared land/air/naval or only applying to a select one or two of them but you have to go out of the way to make these declarations. I've made it easier to do that with a few new tags for assigning validity or invalidity by domain. I needed that because there were now multiple combat classes which used to be the only way we really needed to work with promotion prerequisites. Since the adjustment the full audit of all promos has never been done but I'm impressed by how many have been caught and corrected.

I'll try to remember to adjust Martial Arts and Tattoos. Pankraton actually may be still fitting since the Greeks were so very physical about their naval battles. Still a bit distracted from modding though.
 
hmm... I'm not familiar with vicinity coding. Sounds like you're nice and close to the solution and the vicinity stuff in the dll is all that would need fixing then.
 
A single click is sufficient. And yeah, I did but I didn't look closely enough at the help text display.

So pankraton and Tattoos are capable of providing a bonus to those units. Pankraton gives a number of bonuses that would never apply. Tattoos... I suppose it makes some sense still though I might advocate it should only be valid for melee units since it would take being up close to the opponent to give them the impression that you're 'hard core' which if I'm remembering right is the reason for the combat bonus.

Martial Arts would have no value to a naval unit.

So basically the rule of thumb is that a promo can be declared land/air/naval or only applying to a select one or two of them but you have to go out of the way to make these declarations. I've made it easier to do that with a few new tags for assigning validity or invalidity by domain. I needed that because there were now multiple combat classes which used to be the only way we really needed to work with promotion prerequisites. Since the adjustment the full audit of all promos has never been done but I'm impressed by how many have been caught and corrected.

I'll try to remember to adjust Martial Arts and Tattoos. Pankraton actually may be still fitting since the Greeks were so very physical about their naval battles. Still a bit distracted from modding though.

I disagree. Those naval battles were all about boarding enemy ships. Even with Greek fire, ballistae and whatever, reliably depriving the enemy of the ship generally means capturing it. Even after gunpowder, the taking of prizes is impossible without boarding the ship (before it's sinking and therefore abandoned), and therefore usually hand-to-hand combat.

It's only around the end of the 19th century when melee and unarmed combat ceases to be part of naval warfare.
 
I disagree. Those naval battles were all about boarding enemy ships. Even with Greek fire, ballistae and whatever, reliably depriving the enemy of the ship generally means capturing it. Even after gunpowder, the taking of prizes is impossible without boarding the ship (before it's sinking and therefore abandoned), and therefore usually hand-to-hand combat.

It's only around the end of the 19th century when melee and unarmed combat ceases to be part of naval warfare.

I have to agree with Yudishtira on this. +1
 
As far as I know distance was never involved. The return was based solely on the size of the end city and if it was on a different landmass.

Pedia told me one time before that it also matters how far the city is away and how large it is. Think about how this will be handeled in future, you can generate the same amount of cash when you move from a 5 plot or a 100 plot away city your caravan actually.
 
I disagree. Those naval battles were all about boarding enemy ships. Even with Greek fire, ballistae and whatever, reliably depriving the enemy of the ship generally means capturing it. Even after gunpowder, the taking of prizes is impossible without boarding the ship (before it's sinking and therefore abandoned), and therefore usually hand-to-hand combat.

It's only around the end of the 19th century when melee and unarmed combat ceases to be part of naval warfare.

So... I agree with you. But are you suggesting that such early ships should be thus considered melee (maybe evolving to archery or siege in some cases) as well and allow all of those promotions (and maybe more) to be included?

aka... what are you suggesting in terms of promotions or unit interaction considerations on a larger scale?

I've often thought that ships should be unable to move unless 'manned' and that land units should not only be required to be trained to 'man' ships but they should also be invested of their own promos and so on and be boardable and capable of boarding others. These considerations have haunted my thinking for a while now. Civ is NOT well setup to work this way but some Combat Mod style stuff could be done to MAKE it that way... just a very large project.

So in the meantime... what are you suggesting in game terms exactly?
 
While giving them the subcombat is the ultimately correct solution, it will probably cause all sorts of problems. So I suggest these promos should be available to Wooden Ships. (While the divide between wooden and steam ships is not in exactly the right place, it's close enough...)

If you want this to only apply to promos given by buildings, I think I would prefer that too. After all, I was only talking about the three specific promos which the conversation was about.
 
In my current game i can't access my domestic advisor.
I know it's working with vanilla C2C but since i modified some files for my liking and use some modmods i'd look for a hint where the files for the domestic advisor are located and what i have to edit to get it working again.
 
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