Single Player bugs and crashes v38 plus (SVN) - After the 20th of February 2018

[JosEPh_II]

Of course, there are many other aspects from reality that are not shown in the game (volumetric resources comes to mind, which would probably favor larger empires again, because right now it doesn't mean anything if you have an important resource just once or ten times).

Disagree. Having more than 1 of a critical resource does mean alot. Both for your Empire And as a means for substantial Trade. If you only have 1 of the resource and it's located on a frontier city that resource is vulnerable. Demanding protection and the resources to protect it. If it's not well protected that city or the plot the resource is on is subject to invasion and potential change of ownership. Losing resources like obsidian, copper, and iron early game can be devastatingly Bad if an Aggressor Empire is bent on acquiring it. Losing any of these 3 can and will send your army back to the stone age. There are mid to late era resources that can do the same thing to you as well.

@BlueGenie,
AFAIK WFL does not give Commerce. It's all based on research but has more than just the condition of being behind a set % in tech. It also factors in Empire Pop size as well. You can be 1 tech behind the leader (which TD would not give you anything for) but because you are 1 pop behind you receive it's benefit. It's one of the reasons I stopped using it for Test games. Scope is rather large and too lenient imho.

 

[DC0]

SVN v.10038
I got tired from many consequent savegame breaking updates so I deliberately stayed on v.10038 without updates.
Sometimes savegame breaks in a following manner: I used to have +20 currency per turn before update and -200 per turn after update (after re-calculation of parameters). Anyway, to the bugs.

Neanderthal Gatherer can't upgrade to Neanderthal Worker.
To upgrade, Sedentary lifestyle and Neanderthal culture are both required. But Sedentary lifestyle obsoletes Neanderthal culture.

Workboat (classical) is broken.
According to description, it should be able to go 2 tiles per turn and have higher work rate.
It does have higher work rate: 150 vs 100 of Workboat (ancient). Considering much higher hummer cost it doesn't seem to be fair.
But for some strange reason it moves only 1 tile per turn. It can only move 2 tiles per turn if it moves through the city in 1st move.

AI is very passive on Huge map, Eternity game speed, Monarch difficulty.
While it had free (from difficulty) early exploration and hunting units, AI explored and hunted. After those unit got killed by animals, it didn't bother to make new ones.
Sometimes AI has 3 Great Hunters inside city. But it doesn't bother to convert them into Master Hunter or Hunter specialist in city.
Also, AI doesn't try to make new cities. I have 7 cities now, all AI has only 1 city. I'm at 1/3 of Ancient era now.
Literally, AI just sits inside cities. Occasionally sends Exiles into my territory. Or maybe they all were barbarian.

Also, overall manufacturing is veeeeeeery slow compared to research. Research is comfortable 8-14 turns per turn. Freshly available buildings are 6-11 turns to build. And each tech brings several new buildings.

I'll update to latest SVN v.10051 now.

 

[tmv]

Education autobuilds from "Genius" (and the opposite, plus/minus 11) don't have education constraints.

 

[raxo2222]

SVN v.10038
I got tired from many consequent savegame breaking updates so I deliberately stayed on v.10038 without updates.
Sometimes savegame breaks in a following manner: I used to have +20 currency per turn before update and -200 per turn after update (after re-calculation of parameters). Anyway, to the bugs.

Neanderthal Gatherer can't upgrade to Neanderthal Worker.
To upgrade, Sedentary lifestyle and Neanderthal culture are both required. But Sedentary lifestyle obsoletes Neanderthal culture.

Workboat (classical) is broken.
According to description, it should be able to go 2 tiles per turn and have higher work rate.
It does have higher work rate: 150 vs 100 of Workboat (ancient). Considering much higher hummer cost it doesn't seem to be fair.
But for some strange reason it moves only 1 tile per turn. It can only move 2 tiles per turn if it moves through the city in 1st move.

AI is very passive on Huge map, Eternity game speed, Monarch difficulty.
While it had free (from difficulty) early exploration and hunting units, AI explored and hunted. After those unit got killed by animals, it didn't bother to make new ones.
Sometimes AI has 3 Great Hunters inside city. But it doesn't bother to convert them into Master Hunter or Hunter specialist in city.
Also, AI doesn't try to make new cities. I have 8 cities now, all AI has only 1 city. I'm at 1/3 of Ancient era now.
Literally, AI just sits inside cities. Occasionally sends Exiles into my territory. Or maybe they all were barbarian.

Also, overall manufacturing is veeeeeeery slow compared to research. Research is comfortable 8-14 turns per turn. Freshly available buildings are 6-11 turns to build. And each tech brings several new buildings.

I'll update to latest SVN v.10051 now.

AI got fixes in SVN1004x SVN.

As for construction costs I hope this will ease your pain:
- Build city with >5 hills (set hills to max before starting game), its nicer if they have giving features on them.
- Build giving improvements first.
- Place citizens on tiles that gives most .
- Focus on giving buildings first.
Especially on your second and later cities.

Additionally you can maximize production by picking certain civics and traits (impure traits + negative traits for adventurous ones).
Also there are production increasing (great) specialists.

Thunderbird employs that strategy fully when playing and testing.

Why unused tech isn't commented out?
This one requires Globalization.

Spoiler :

 

[DC0]

AI got fixes in SVN1004x SVN.

As for construction costs I hope this will ease your pain:
- Build city with >5 hills (set hills to max before starting game), its nicer if they have giving features on them.
- Build giving improvements first.
- Place citizens on tiles that gives most .
- Focus on giving buildings first.
Especially on your second and later cities.

Additionally you can maximize production by picking certain civics and traits (impure traits + negative traits for adventurous ones).
Also there are production increasing (great) specialists.

Thunderbird employs that strategy fully when playing and testing.

After updating to SVN v.10051 I immediately saw improvements: of 4 known to me AI cities that were building Lesser coins 3 switched to building Settlers. 1 is still building Lesser coins.

2 additional known to me AI cities are continuing to build Ancient Way of whatever. Interestingly, 1st is building Way of Leech, 2nd Way of Wild.
Really? They are so important to AI? All Ways of are currently free to be built. I'd choose to speed up in this order: Melee, Archers, Throwing, Mounted.

As for your advice about slow manufacturing, I do all you suggested and even go slightly farther: I add via World Builder high yielding resources to my cities (stone, fine clay, etc.). So it takes me 2-5 turns less to build some freshly discovered building, compared to number of turns I've indicated previously. But it seems wrong that I must adjust the game in this manner only to have comfortable output.

I strongly suggest Thunderbird to start employing Hills to Normal when starting new game for testing. Maybe it will make him re-consider build pace

 

[raxo2222]

After updating to SVN v.10051 I immediately saw improvements: of 4 known to me AI cities that were building Lesser coins 3 switched to building Settlers. 1 is still building Lesser coins.

2 additional known to me AI cities are continuing to build Ancient Way of whatever. Interestingly, 1st is building Way of Leech, 2nd Way of Wild.
Really? They are so important to AI? All Ways of are currently free to be built. I'd choose to speed up in this order: Melee, Archers, Throwing, Mounted.

As for your advice about slow manufacturing, I do all you suggested and even go slightly farther: I add via World Builder high yielding resources to my cities (stone, fine clay, etc.). So it takes me 2-5 turns less to build some freshly discovered building, compared to number of turns I've indicated previously. But it seems wrong that I must adjust the game in this manner only to have comfortable output.

I strongly suggest Thunderbird to start employing Hills to Normal when starting new game for testing. Maybe it will make him re-consider build pace

There are still some bugs with AI, that will get fixed.
Also start new game, as it seems you didn't start new game.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Its tough to show direct reality process comprisons for WFL but there are some good RL models of moments in history where smaller nations have powerfully outperformed larger ones both in territory and population scope. Perhaps there is a conclusive underlying cause in such examples that can be said to be the RL equivalent.

These examples include Portugal, Italy, the United States, Ancient Greece, and on the other end you have nations that are far more populated that have lagged behind.

 

[BlueGenie]

The French in this game are not expanding. Seems they are, with 2 cities, going minus with over 2k per turn???

SVN 10041

Edit: Also, I still get increased "imaginary" units added to Supply limit so that in the current game it's counting as me having 51 units to supply when I have only 15 out.

Edit2: I should probably point out that I have set Eternity Speed to 2500 in Research instead of 1000, and Nightmare Deity to 150 research instead of 100, and am manually increasing the "free outside units" to match what I actually have, to offset the Imaginary Units.

 

[JosEPh_II]

The French in this game are not expanding. Seems they are, with 2 cities, going minus with over 2k per turn???

SVN 10041

Edit: Also, I still get increased "imaginary" units added to Supply limit so that in the current game it's counting as me having 48 units to supply when I have only 15 out.

You really need to update to get the 10043 DLL. Will fix most of your problems as it was a Major Fix to the AI Brokerage system Plus other areas. You are a bit behind the times BG.

 

[BlueGenie]

Updating to latest SVN (10051) fixed the French money shortage, but not the Supply line Imaginary Units.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Updating to latest SVN (10051) fixed the French money shortage, but not the Supply line Imaginary Units.

You might need to clear your cache folder too. I'm sure you did the Re-Calc after the upgrade so the next step to normalization is clearing the cache folder.

Then after you have done that give it a few turns and then check to see if the supply line problem is still there.

But I don't recall the game having any "supply line" though. Care to elaborate on what you mean? Perhaps a screen shot.

 

[BlueGenie]

The cost for having units outside of your borders, Supply Cost.
Testing the clearing of cache now but not hopeful with the Supply Problem. It's adding imaginary units during ongoing games without restarting the game, restarting does not help, recalc does not help, and the imaginary amount of outside borders units to pay supply cost for just increases over time.

Initially it does nothing to remove the imaginary units from Supply Cost. Even did a Recalc to no avail. Trying a few turns now.
10 turn in still no change to the Supply Cost Imaginary units. So cache clearing did not help.

Edit: It's called Unit Supply in Expenses in game, in F2, Financial Advisor.

Edit2: I should probably point out that I have set Eternity Speed to 2500 in Research instead of 1000, and Nightmare Deity to 150 research instead of 100, and am manually increasing the "free outside units" to match what I actually have, to offset the Imaginary Units.

 

[raxo2222]

The cost for having units outside of your borders, Supply Cost.
Testing the clearing of cache now but not hopeful with the Supply Problem. It's adding imaginary units during ongoing games without restarting the game, restarting does not help, recalc does not help, and the imaginary amount of outside borders units to pay supply cost for just increases over time.

Initially it does nothing to remove the imaginary units from Supply Cost. Even did a Recalc to no avail. Trying a few turns now.
10 turn in still no change to the Supply Cost Imaginary units. So cache clearing did not help.

Edit: It's called Unit Supply in Expenses in game, in F2, Financial Advisor.

Edit2: I should probably point out that I have set Eternity Speed to 2500 in Research instead of 1000, and Nightmare Deity to 150 research instead of 100, and am manually increasing the "free outside units" to match what I actually have, to offset the Imaginary Units.

You should change ResearchPercent back to 100 in handicaps.
AIResearchPercent changes AI's research cost.

 

[BlueGenie]

I only changed it in StrategyOnly's folder, for Better Handicaps, and iResearchPercent only. So the 2500 is global but I added 50% more to a Human Deity Nightmare player as well. Hence the "and Deity Nightmare", to indicate that it's for the human player. Sorry if I was not clear enough with that.

 

[raxo2222]

I only changed it in StrategyOnly's folder, for Better Handicaps, and iResearchPercent only. So the 2500 is global but I added 50% more to a Human Deity Nightmare player as well. Hence the "and Deity Nightmare", to indicate that it's for the human player. Sorry if I was not clear enough with that.

But you didn't change iResearchPercent in any of handicap files?
If you changed that in handicap files, then you should revert that.
iAIResearchPercent changes research cost for AI.
Now on all handicaps (and map sizes too) players doesn't see any difference in their research and production costs.

 

[JosEPh_II]

The cost for having units outside of your borders, Supply Cost.
Testing the clearing of cache now but not hopeful with the Supply Problem. It's adding imaginary units during ongoing games without restarting the game, restarting does not help, recalc does not help, and the imaginary amount of outside borders units to pay supply cost for just increases over time.

Initially it does nothing to remove the imaginary units from Supply Cost. Even did a Recalc to no avail. Trying a few turns now.
10 turn in still no change to the Supply Cost Imaginary units. So cache clearing did not help.

Edit: It's called Unit Supply in Expenses in game, in F2, Financial Advisor.

Edit2: I should probably point out that I have set Eternity Speed to 2500 in Research instead of 1000, and Nightmare Deity to 150 research instead of 100, and am manually increasing the "free outside units" to match what I actually have, to offset the Imaginary Units.

You said you only initially had 15 units outside of your borders, does this include any subdued animals?

 

[BlueGenie]

Joseph: No, total units outside were 15, no subdued animals outside of borders. But it added 36 imaginary units somehow counting for Units Supply.

Raxo: No, I did not change anything for the AI in any Handicap files, I only changed for myself, the Human Player, in SO's Nightmare Deity Handicap file, the <iResearchPercent> tag.
I also changed globally for research in Game Speed for Eternity, from 1000 to 2500, increasing the time globally, for AI and humans, by 2.5x, for a longer period in Prehistory, and in all others later on of course too, as that's my preference, no time limits and longer games.
Neither of those changes are uploaded to the SVN so I am a bit confused as to your demanding me changing anything back again.
I don't know whom set the aiResearch and iResearch in SVN but is certainly wasn't me as I don't have access to upload anything anyway.

 

[raxo2222]

Joseph: No, total units outside were 15, no subdued animals outside of borders. But it added 36 imaginary units somehow counting for Units Supply.

Raxo: No, I did not change anything for the AI in any Handicap files, I only changed for myself, the Human Player, in SO's Nightmare Deity Handicap file, the <iResearchPercent> tag.
I also changed globally for research in Game Speed for Eternity, from 1000 to 2500, increasing the time globally, for AI and humans, by 2.5x, for a longer period in Prehistory, and in all others later on of course too, as that's my preference, no time limits and longer games.
Neither of those changes are uploaded to the SVN so I am a bit confused as to your demanding me changing anything back again.
I don't know whom set the aiResearch and iResearch in SVN but is certainly wasn't me as I don't have access to upload anything anyway.

Well it was changed recently that handicaps (including SO's handicap file) should affect AI research/production costs not players.
So by setting player tech cost in handicap <iResearchCost> you do absolutely nothing.

 

[Thunderbrd]

But Sedentary lifestyle obsoletes Neanderthal culture.

It obsoletes the building that gives artificial Neanderthal Culture (but doesn't obsolete it for the Neanderthal Player(s)). Working as intended. Not all Neanderthal units were supposed to be available in this arrangement.

But for some strange reason it moves only 1 tile per turn. It can only move 2 tiles per turn if it moves through the city in 1st move.

Because both coast and ocean require 2 movement points but some units are better at traversing one or the other. It's thus a very very minor benefit at that stage.

Research is comfortable 8-14 turns per turn. Freshly available buildings are 6-11 turns to build. And each tech brings several new buildings

The ratio sounds about right. NOT all techs bring 'several' new buildings. Many techs bring no new buildings and that's the strategic point. Time your way through the tech tree strategically to plan for time to catch up on building needs.

The version you were on was before a 20% tech cost hike and I'm still considering another 10% reduction in construction costs for buildings.

 

[BlueGenie]

Actually it does a lot. I saw that it was set to 100 for all <iResearchPercent> handicaps in handicaps. That is what changes the humans to have no change against each other and only sets the AI's values to be changing depending on the highest human player level. I don't understand the reason behind that myself as now a player playing Noble and one playing Immortal actually have virtually no difference in difficulty as the AI will be set by the Immortal player and the Noble player will have a harder time than usual against the AI then, without getting a little relief in research, building, and training units times, as I also saw that <iTrainPercent> and <iConstructPercent> were also set to 100 over the board.
Those are set differently to set a difference in player levels by giving a handicap to those not as good at the game when playing Multiplayer. The differences in them when playing solo do not matter, except set a general base to set the AI percentages against. Having a Deity on 100 and AI on 85, as it is now actually, makes Deity way too easy for any Deity player. I noticed that I was outperforming the AI in everything after a third of Prehistory with the StrategyOnly Deity settings, with 100 Deity and AI at 79.
Anyway, was meaning to say that a Deity of 100 and AI of 50 would be the same as a Deity of 150 and a AI of 75 but would mean a Noble player would have a benefit against the Deity player if set to 100 for the Noble (and the AI from Noble at 100 would not matter as the AI setting would be set from the Deity Player as the highest Handicap Human Player, at 75).

Also anyway, me changing the <iResearchPercent> in StrategyOnly's handicap file from 100 to 150 DOES make a difference, it makes all my techs cost 1.5x more and take roughly 33% longer to tech, giving the AI a much needed handicap against me. reminds me, I also set <iAIResearchPercent> to 75 instead of 79 in that file, making them tech slightly faster again, though not by much.

For reference I have 3825 beakers needed for Equine Domestication with 100 in iResearchPercent and 5737 needed with 150. I saved, changed, reloaded, and checked, so I could tell you that it does make a difference.