Snap UK General Election

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I cannot see how leaving the EU imperils the supply of tractors etc to the UK.

I suspect that JCB are likely more concerned with not paying taxes on imports
from their plants in India etc than about EU27 companies paying tariffs after Brexit.

I did not state that leaving the EU imperils the supply of tractors etc to the UK nor do I think that.
I was merely pointing out that if you are to protect UK farming by such measures as an "assured market and guaranteed prices system" for strategic reasons the whole supply system should be looked at. If Trump starts a war that results in us having to import practically all our food then it is also likely that we would have to make our own tractors as well.

The 29 second clip Silurian referred to with Boris Johnson does not have
him saying the £350 million would all be for the NHS. His most recent paper
in the press stated that the UK should recover control of that amount.
Some of the £350 M was the UK rebate, but the rebate was never guarranteed.

From Telegraph (Their Bold)

Exclusive: Boris Johnson - Yes, we WILL take back £350m from EU for NHS


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/15/exclusive-boris-johnson-yes-will-take-back-350m-eu-nhs/

There was plenty of immigration before the UK joined the EEC in 1973.


As to believing Boris because he is a government minister, I do not recollect him
being an important minister at the time of the UK referendum on the EU, and I could
equally argue that many Remainers may have simply unquestionably merely
believed David Cameron because he was a well liked Prime Minister then.

Too many believe without question on all sides. But the Conservatives will be held to account by what Boris said and the words on the bus he stood beside. By making Foreign minister shortly after Brexit they have tied his leave campaign into the attacks that will be made against the Conservatives after Brexit.
 
I did not state that leaving the EU imperils the supply of tractors etc to the UK nor do I think that.
I was merely pointing out that if you are to protect UK farming by such measures as an "assured market and guaranteed prices system" for strategic reasons the whole supply system should be looked at. If Trump starts a war that results in us having to import practically all our food then it is also likely that we would have to make our own tractors as well.

Tractors are not consumed as quickly as food. If you were not able to buy a tractor starting from tomorrow, you could still use the old ones until they break down. It would take a few years until the situation became really critical and you could use that time to search for alternatives. If all food imports stopped starting tomorrow, you would quickly have a dire crisis and new local crops would not grow in time to avert it.
 
You are correct that the tractors are likely to last for many years but they will need parts.
If we can not import the tractors we will not be able to import the parts.
We could make the parts but things are getting more complicated with whole assemblies having to be replaced rather than just making or adapting something yourself.We would have to rebuild our machine tools engineering sectors to make the parts we could not get for tractors and all the other things that we now need to maintain the current levels of production let alone increase it during a war.
 
If i was a Brit, i would have voted for Labour for sure (what i wouldn't always do, because i'm done with the Blairites/Schroder-types, we need real socialists who don't back down). Possibly also for SNP/Sinn Fein because i can imagine me fighting for Scottish independence/Irish unification (but that depends). I'm not sure if i would have voted remain or leave in the EU. I think i wouldn't vote leave, but i wouldn't care if my country would leave the EU, since the EU is a bureaucratic and corrupt club of people who lost touch with the people. I would probably not have been mobilized (and stayed home). My opinion about the EU did drastically change. Earlier i was pro-EU or even very pro-EU, and now, i don't seem to care at all anymore. I'm actually disappointed in the EU. It's probably a failing project. I believe the EU will collapse sooner or later and it's maybe better that way. I'm also very opposed to NATO, so i want my country absolutely to leave NATO. I'm also very anti-USA and I don't believe in a USA-EU friendship at all. I trust China actually more than USA.

I know the brother of Jeremy Corbyn, and that's an absolute moron. I'm very interested in weather & climate, and he is a climate change denier, and is a very controversial figure in meteorology (not being taken seriously by everyone else). He also believes in a new ice age this century, LOL, and you have to pay for access on his site.
 
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Silurian. I suggest you listen to the video clip at that link rather than simply take the misleading summary text line at its face value.
The quotations of the article I read in the dead tree format Times refer to taking control of the £350 M not spending it all on the NHS.
 
Lord Ashcroft's polls said:
Nearly half (49%) of leave voters said the biggest single reason for wanting to leave the EU was “the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK”.
Which they are already, since the UK -- like all EU members -- remains a sovereign nation, subject only to the treaties that it has signed voluntarily.
One third (33%) said the main reason was that leaving “offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders.”
Which it has already, Theresa May just wasn't bothering to exercise those powers during her tenure as Home Sec...
Just over one in eight (13%) said remaining would mean having no choice “about how the EU expanded its membership or its powers in the years ahead.”
Which is (AFAIK) simply not true, since (AFAIK) no sovereign member-state is obliged to sign anything that its current national government does not agree with, giving each sovereign member-state effective veto-powers over every EU-treaty. Not to mention, that Tony B. Liar's (democratically elected) UK government was one of those that pushed hardest for the last major expansion of EU-membership, which brought in Poland et al.
Only just over one in twenty (6%) said their main reason was that “when it comes to trade and the economy, the UK would benefit more from being outside the EU than from being part of it.”
So, that would be 6% of 52% of about 33.5 million Referendum voters: just over 1 million people, nationwide.
I could equally argue that many Remainers may have simply unquestionably merely believed David Cameron because he was a well liked Prime Minister then.
You could try, but I think you'd have difficulty making both those charges stick.

As you (should) know perfectly well (because the statistics are there for everyone to see), there were fairly clear demographic splits between Remain and Leave voters, with Remainers tending to be younger and/or better educated and/or better-off and/or more left-leaning(?) than Leavers, on average. While we obviously can't generalise about the particular (I am not suggesting that you yourself are 50+ and/or un[der]educated and/or on the poverty line and/or right-leaning; I know nothing about you, other than you voted Leave), I think it's more likely that most Remainers voted that way because -- having actually done their research beforehand -- they'd decided it was in the best interests of themselves and/or their nation to do so, regardless of what Cameron thought. And possibly also because they were pretty sure that Leave-ing would result in exactly the kind of chaotic fustercluck and pass-the-blame-game that we're seeing right now. (But oh no, I forgot, that was just 'Project Fear' talking, wasn't it...?)

And suggesting that Call-me-Dave was still well-liked after 5 years of "We're all in this together [unless you're already loaded]" austerity measures? Please, have mercy, my sides are hurting -- especially when you (should) also already know perfectly well that a substantial number of (low-income) Leave-voters did so, not because they had any particular valuable opinions of their own about the EU (based on, you know, actually true information, as opposed to tabloid sensationalism about bent bananas, etc.), but precisely because Cameron was backing 'Remain', and they wanted to stick it to him for making their lives more miserable.

(I find it interesting, but also kind of depressing, that in the days directly after the Referendum, UK internet traffic statistics showed a sudden spike in interest in what the EU actually stands for/does. That is, a substantial number of people -- and I speculate: Leave-voters with buyer's remorse? -- apparently didn't bother researching the pros and/or cons of EU-membership for themselves, until after the votes were counted. After all, what have the Rom-... sorry, the EU27 -- ever done for us? [Apart from supporting human rights, worker's rights, farmers' livelihoods, academic co-operation, trade relations with the rest of the world...])
 
..he EU27 -- ever done for us? [Apart from supporting human rights, worker's rights, farmers' livelihoods, academic co-operation, trade relations with the rest of the world...])

All those existed in the UK long before the UK joined the EEC/EC/EU.

Which Remainers not born then would have quickly found out if they had undertaken any research.
 
All those existed in the UK long before the UK joined the EEC/EC/EU.

Which Remainers not born then would have quickly found out if they had undertaken any research.
They existed, but many of them were much weaker than they are within the EU. In particular (to me at least) academic cooperation will really suffer. There are many collaborative grants that are really important for getting people working in similar fields into the same room to discuss stuff that currently Switzerland and Norway are excluded from. This will hurt our currently excellent scientific output.
 
All those existed in the UK long before the UK joined the EEC/EC/EU.

Which Remainers not born then would have quickly found out if they had undertaken any research.
Sorry, but this is a cheap comeback and you know it.
Yes, people of British isles had "trade relations" with other parts of the world well before Roman times and I'm sure Oxbridge developed some sort of "academic co-operation" with other European universities shortly after getting founded.
Does that mean you'd just shrug off all the development made hence as irrelevant?

EDIT: x-post with Samson.
 
Sorry, but this is a cheap comeback and you know it.

No, it is the correct answer to the particular point that TJS282 said.


Does that mean you'd just shrug off all the development made hence as irrelevant?

The key developments of the last 40 years, development of silicon chips, the Internet,
modernisation of China etc have absolutely nothing to do with the European Union.

Found this...
http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/
...worth thinking about in relation to Brexit. :)

Some people seem to have the strange idea that 17 million UK adults wake up every morning, go to the newsagents, buy a tabloid, believe what it says and vote according to its editor's line.

Edited to reflect verbose's post.
 
Some people seem to have the strange idea that 17 million UK adults wake up every morning, go to the newsagents, buy a tabloid, believe what it says and vote according to its editor's line.

Edited to reflect verbose's post.
Your current Foreign Sec is known to personally have made up few of them. It seems somehow significant. :)

The point isn't the the British are more gullible than anyone else, probably less even. It's rather how the aggregate effects of repetition tends to play out.
 
Your current Foreign Sec is known to personally have made up few of them. It seems somehow significant. :)

The point isn't the the British are more gullible than anyone else, probably less even. It's rather how the aggregate effects of repetition tends to play out.

Strong and stable, gov'ner.
 
Your current Foreign Sec is known to personally have made up few of them. It seems somehow significant.

I understand that he started out as a journalist with deadlines to file interesting
copy which encourages exaggeration and leaves little time for due diligence.


The point isn't the the British are more gullible than anyone else, probably less even.

Which is likely a reason why most of us don't buy into the European Union dream.


It's rather how the aggregate effects of repetition tends to play out.

Oh yes indeed, I am sure there is some degree of group think bubble feedback effect with people who read too many
tabloids too often, but much the same could be said about remainers who read the Guardian and the Independent.


Strong and stable, gov'ner.

The UK electorate saw right through that in 2017.

Edited to reflect Kyriakos post.
 
Oh yes indeed, I am sure there is some degree of group think bubble feedback effect with people who read too many tabloids too often, but much the same could be said about remainers who read the Guardian and the Independent.

Which other non-right-wing papers would you suggest?
 
I understand that he started out as a journalist with deadlines to file interesting
copy which encourages exaggeration and leaves little time for due diligence.
No, he simply made up a lot of crap as a EU correspondent in the 90's. He's notorious within the reporting profession.
 
The key developments of the last 40 years, development of silicon chips, the Internet,
modernisation of China etc have absolutely nothing to do with the European Union.
You changed your examples and now you
are looking at them from the wrong end.
The EU may not have brought those things about, rather it has developed to cope with them.
No one forced the Member States to create the EU, it was created because they all found it useful. I doubt the recent UK minority opinion on that to be anything but a tragic mistake.
 
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It is because he is a known actual cretin.

Resorting to insults is a sign you are losing the debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretin


You changed your examples and now you
are looking at them from the wrong end.

I at least provided examples. What are your examples?

The EU may not have brought those things about, rather it has developed to cope with them.
No one forced the Member States to create the EU, it was created because they all found it useful.

There is a distinction between countries and their politicians.

The EU project enthusiasts sold the idea to a few politicians. The rest were told that there was no alternative.
The countries thought to be in favour were permitted a referendum, but when some (Ireland or France) voted
against it, they were told to vote again or were ignored. There was no referendum in the UK on the EU prior
to joining because the EU elite and local politicians knew full well that the UK public would vote against it.
 
Even if every word of that was the unvarnished truth, those are still the actions of the governments of the time.

It is handy to have the voice of the people on hand for any given historical decision, no matter how divisive or far back, wouldn't you say?
 
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