So, was Trump right about "violence on many sides" after all?

[Gori the Grey]

they don't see it a symbol of extermination

Are they aware that it was the national symbol of a group who exterminated six million people? They likely are aware of that, no?

 

[civver_764]

We're heading into dangerous waters so let's turn this around.

Are you aware that this symbol was the national symbol of many groups who killed upwards of 100 million in the 20th century? Applying your logic, you should feel that people using this symbol are even more reprehensible. In terms of all symbols you could use, this one is clearly the worst of the worst. Is that your position?

Moderator Action: "Turning this around" debate tactics are rarely positive contributions. Besides the fact that the discussion is about the flag of the Nazi regime (and its use in Nazism-aligned groups in America), equivalence debates seem solely designed to goad negative reactions out of everyone else while ensuring that you don't need to respond to the actual discussion taking place. This is, in essence, trolling. - Vincour
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Gori the Grey]

I didn't see people on either side of the Charlottesville protests bearing that symbol.

We're talking about a symbol carried by one of the "Unite the Right" protesters in a photograph you provided.

Is the man in that photo likely to know that six million people were put to death under that banner, do you think?

 

[Berzerker]

Stop making up stuff. The white nationalists were not attacked. Nor was this person who murdered a woman in any way threatened. He decided to drive his car into that crowd out of his own free will. All attempts to portray him as being threatened by coutner-protestors have been proven to be completely fake. It's amazing how certain people will reject even the most obvious proof, yet are ready to believe the most absurd conspiracy-theories that had been thoroughly debunked five minutes after they were mentioned for the first time...

While you're on the subject of making up stuff, I didn't mention the driver, re-read the quote. I dont know what happened before he drove into people, but a trial should establish if he was attacked first - if he was that would likely result in dropping terrorism and murder charges to manslaughter or negligent homicide, etc. As for the white nationalists, they didn't show up at someone else's rally to attack them. Antifa does and they did in Virginia... Maybe antifa should show up with flowers, good grass and music. Well, I'm sure they got the last two covered. Kinda ironic people can walk around with weapons but get arrested for pot.

Antifa is a threat to free speech... They attack protesters (compare that to abortion opponents intimidating doctors and their patients, are they a threat to abortion rights?) and their 'anti-fascistic' behavior threatens the free speech of everyone else too, especially Trump's critics. The hatred for antifa will grow as people see them in action and that will taint anyone 'associated' with them in just the same way people on the left have done to the 'other side'. What are you, one of those antifa/Nazi supporters?

Antifa is not one coherent group, it's a collection of unconnected groups with a similar goal. They aren't above violence, and in some parts - more so in Europe than in the USA - they show a tendency to see Nazis everywhere, even in people who have no particular political opinion but who allow people on the right (not even far right) to assemble through the logic that they treat everyone the same as long as they behave properly. Some aren't even beyond using SA-methods to shut down restaurants or bars who do just that. In general though, when you have white supremacist and neo-nazis march through a city, shout the most vile garbage, threaten people (especially Jews) and end up murdering a person who protests against them, antifa is the least of your worries. They aren't the ones who threaten society, they aren't the ones who try to take away other people's dignity or openly demand the "removal" of people they dislike from the country.

Antifa would let the Nazis live here? I think antifa would be removing plenty of people, including people who dont behave properly. The KKK and neo-Nazis are threats to the society I want to live in, and I'm a threat to their utopia. But we have a Constitution that protects me from their ideology and protects them from mine. Antifa ignores those protections, that makes them not only a threat, but an immediate one.

None of that really matters though, because Antifa was only a small part of the protest against that march. It speaks volumes about certain people though. If a cause they believe in gets attacked due to associations to white supremacy and neo-nazis, they try to portray everyone opposing them in the worst light possible. In this case, they pick antifa, see that they do apply violence at times, and simply declare everyone who is against them to be like antifa, thus portraying "both sides" as being the same. It's intellectually dishonest and about as pathetic an argument as it gets.

They were the small part that brought weapons and started a fight, but I never blamed peaceful protesters on either side for the fighting - they didn't get violent. You're just making up stuff again while complaining about intellectual dishonesty.

 

[civver_764]

I didn't see people on either side of the Charlottesville protests bearing that symbol.

We're talking about a symbol carried by one of the "Unite the Right" protesters in a photograph you provided.

Is the man in that photo likely to know that six million people were put to death under that banner, do you think?

Here is a photo of a counter-demonstrator waving a Communist flag at Charlottesville:

Is that man likely to know that one hundred million people were put to death under that banner, do you think?

 

[innonimatu]

Under your criteria you should be very ashamed of the banner of your country, how many millions died under it?

Someday you'll grow up and understand that the world is more complex that the beliefs you cling to. Or not. The world will go on regardless.

 

[civver_764]

Under your criteria you should be very ashamed of the banner of your country, how many millions died under it?

This is not my criteria, this is Gori's criteria. I'm simply asking him to be consistent with his own beliefs. If the Unite the Right attendees are evil because somebody brought a Swastika flag, then the counter-demonstrators must be even more evil because of those who brought Hammer & Sickle Flags.

 

[innonimatu]

Unlike you, most of the world regards the swastika flag evil but has no strong opinion on the sickle and hammer. It is you who are making up an equivalence.

 

[civver_764]

Unlike you, most of the world regards the swastika flag evil but has no strong opinion on the sickle and hammer. It is you who are making up an equivalence.

Not an argument.

 

[Berzerker]

I think the equivalence was made up by the body count

 

[Gori the Grey]

This is not my criteria, this is Gori's criteria. I'm simply asking him to be consistent with his own beliefs. If the Unite the Right attendees are evil because somebody brought a Swastika flag, then the counter-demonstrators must be even more evil because of those who brought Hammer & Sickle Flags.

As a measure of how closely associated the flags are with the respective genocides, if you go to Wikipedia's "List of Symbols," under swastika, you will find this:

To Jews and the enemies of Nazi Germany, it became a symbol of antisemitism and terror.[6] In many Western countries, the swastika is viewed as a symbol of racial supremacy and intimidation because of its association with Nazism.

Under "Hammer and Sickle" you will find no such statement.

I haven't used the word "evil," by the way. I'm asking you if you find the man displaying the swastika to be callous, given the strong associations between that symbol and the murder of six million people.

 

[civver_764]

As a measure of how closely associated the flags are with the respective genocides, if you go to Wikipedia's "List of Symbols," under swastika, you will find this:

Under "Hammer and Sickle" you will find no such statement.

What about people's loved ones who died under Communist regimes? You think they're offended by the Hammer and Sickle? And if we're going by the numbers there's gonna be a lot more of those people than Holocaust victims.

Plus, since when has somebody being offended made something off limits? Isn't that the whole idea of edgy humor?

Indeed, what about the symbols of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism? Many people have been oppressed and killed under these belief systems. Should those symbols be off limits?

Hell, as our friend @innonimatu pointed out, a lot of damage has been done under the American flag, but surely you wouldn't suggest that is off-limits.

So I'm not buying your argument that this is just about people taking offense. There's gotta be something else to this.

I haven't used the word "evil," by the way.

You're right, my bad.

 

[Arakhor]

Moderator Action: Closed for 'review'.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Arakhor]

Moderator Action: First off, Off-Topic is not Imgur and is not intended to be used as a repository of violent political images, especially if they're being used as "your side is worse". Taking such liberty with the rules only leads to the rules being tightened, which immediately makes it worse for everyone.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Synobun]

Moderator Action: This thread is remaining locked.

There has been a recent trend in the community to ignore CFC's civility rules when encountering opinions and personalities that make them uncomfortable or that they are explicitly opposed to. This applies to both sides of the 'debate' and has been recurring throughout the myriad of threads that have been made about the subjects of white supremacy, Nazism, the alt-right, and the American administration's implicit or explicit approval of these concepts. CFC is sympathetic towards the rejection of abhorrent concepts and has taken several actions in the past to discourage or otherwise remove blatant breaches of civility and progressiveness.

With that being said, the rules of CFC still apply to everyone. Considering one's opinion to be despicable is permissible. Attacking the poster for this opinion is not. Moderator notes have been made in each of these threads to avoid calling others terms with negative judgement (such as Nazi, fascist, SJW, or white hater) and these notes have been consistently ignored. CFC does not provide a safe haven for any one opinion and the staff team is prepared and willing to infract anyone who breaks the rules regardless of the overarching views being espoused. Those who are incapable of being civil or arguing in good faith will be and have been dealt with.

How one chooses to deal with viewpoints they don't like in their personal life is entirely up to them. While expressing themselves on CFC, however, everyone is expected to abide by the rules. If someone feels content being posted is over the line, they are encouraged to report it and let the staff team deal with it instead of taking over-the-line liberties themselves.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889