So what is really going on in Iraq?

[Whomp]

Carlos here are some of the polls.
It seems some of my data was out of date. I hope these are more gareeable.

23. Thinking about any hardships you might have suffered since the US/British invasion, do you personally think that ousting Saddam Hussein was worth it or not? It was worth it--Shi'ite--74% Sunni--28% Kurds--97%
8. Should US/British forces leave immediately (next few months) or stay longer? 57% leave immediately. (Shi'ite--61% Sunni--65% Kurd--3%)

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-gallup-iraq-findings.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-poll-cover_x.htm
How they see their lives a year from now…71% better
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/GoodMorningAmerica/Iraq_anniversary_poll_040314.html
Approval of the constitution was 78%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_constitution_ratification_vote,_2005
Breakdown by province
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=amqz7dZlEx3w&refer=top_world_news

 

[carlosMM]

thanx, Whomp! will read that stuff later.

 

[Little Raven]

I am willing to bet "no".

And you would be wrong.

I don't blame you; there are lots of blowhards making all kinds of claims about Iraq. But Juan Cole is one the few out there who actually knows what he's talking about. He's fluent in both Arabic and Persian, and has travelled the Middle East extensively.

 

[zulu9812]

I am willing to bet "no".

I'm willing to bet that you haven't been there either. I really find it astonishing that people think that only those with first-hand knowledge have the right to comment. By that standard, you should keep your mouth shut. But I don't think that you should. Opinion should be informed, as this academic is, but he doesn't have to have been to Iraq - saying that he should is simply an attempt to control the flow of information.

However, if you really want to hear from someone in the West with first-hand knowledge of Iraq, check out Dahr Jamail - an American journalist who has covered news in Iraq. Since he has first-hand knowledge of Iraq, I trust you will listen to what he has to say.

EDIT: @Little Raven: classic, well done!

 

[Che Guava]

23. Thinking about any hardships you might have suffered since the US/British invasion, do you personally think that ousting Saddam Hussein was worth it or not? It was worth it--Shi'ite--74% Sunni--28% Kurds--97%
8. Should US/British forces leave immediately (next few months) or stay longer? 57% leave immediately. (Shi'ite--61% Sunni--65% Kurd--3%)

If I were Dubya (or exactly whoever makes his decisions concering Iraq ), I would be trying to set up a UN peacekeeping force in Kurdish Iraq right now for when the American troops leave. Seems like thier the ones most concerned with thier own safety.

 

[Kayak]

If I were Dubya (or exactly whoever makes his decisions concering Iraq ), I would be trying to set up a UN peacekeeping force in Kurdish Iraq right now for when the American troops leave. Seems like thier the ones most concerned with thier own safety.

I don't know why, the Kurds control the biggest and most effective millitary in Iraq at the moment.

I don't think this is why they want us to stay.

 

[Whomp]

Opinion should be informed, as this academic is, but he doesn't have to have been to Iraq - saying that he should is simply an attempt to control the flow of information.

Juan Cole is an academic, and an informed one at that, however let's keep in mind his opinions lean left like 90% of the academics in the U.S. His writings will obviously be biased in that direction.

It's really no different than CEO's, bright as well, lean right. I suppose that's what makes a democracy.

If I were Dubya (or exactly whoever makes his decisions concering Iraq ), I would be trying to set up a UN peacekeeping force in Kurdish Iraq right now for when the American troops leave. Seems like thier the ones most concerned with thier own safety.

I would agree since Civil War seems inevitable IMO.

 

[Che Guava]

I don't know why, the Kurds control the biggest and most effective millitary in Iraq at the moment.

I don't think this is why they want us to stay.

Why would they want you to stay, then? Good company? DOn't mean to be sarcastic, I really don't know why they would save protection...

 

[Kayak]

Why would they want you to stay, then? Good company? DOn't mean to be sarcastic, I really don't know why they would save protection...

At the moment we are garanteeing their independence or autonomy if you will. I'm really not sure but I suspect that the US is beholden to them for supplying "Iraqi" troops so the President can say they are handling more of the security work. It is also posible that the US presence provides protection from posible Turkish incursions.

We seem to be giving them everything they want, why should they want us to leave?

 

[zulu9812]

Juan Cole is an academic, and an informed one at that, however let's keep in mind his opinions lean left like 90% of the academics in the U.S. His writings will obviously be biased in that direction.

No. Academics are concerned with the search for truth. They lean left not because they are unacademic, but because their academic studies show left-wing liberalism to be the most morally acceptable.

 

[Whomp]

No. Academics are concerned with the search for truth. They lean left not because they are unacademic, but because their academic studies show left-wing liberalism to be the most morally acceptable.

Have you ever considered the possibility that certain groups lean left or right because their job is better served by one party or the other?

My girlfriend is an Ivy League educated academic and I'm in business so we disagree.

I don't question that professors are highly intelligent, highly educated people who basically spend their lives giving away knowledge, their primary asset, while subsisting on a salary far lower than what they could make in the private sector, for the greater good.

In other words, they're socialists. Academics are essentially living in a socialist system -- they perform well not for personal gain, but for the good of the collective. Professors rely on a system where the government uses tax dollars to fund (at least public) universities and give out grants. Naturally they lean left.

What conservative would be happy in such a situation?

Higher education as an institution repulse pro-free-market conservatives, not attract them. Saying conservatives are underrepresented in higher education is like claiming socialists are underrepresented on Wall Street. Conservatives want nothing to do with that lifestyle.

Vote for the guy that helps you out, right? To each their own.

 

[MobBoss]

And you would be wrong.

Uhm....no...you didnt bother to read further in depth into what you posted. From Mr. Coles own website here is where he has been:

It is sort of silly for me to have to do so, but I don't mind telling Mr. Hitchens about my experience in "the region." With regard to extended stays, here is the itinerary: in Eritrea (at that time part of Ethiopia) 1967-1968; Lebanon Sept. 1974- Mar. 1975, then Sept. 1975-November 1975, then summer 1977, then June 1978-April 1979; Jordan Dec. 1975-May 1976; Egypt in 1976-1978, 1985-1986, summer 1988; Pakistan Sept. 1981-Jan. 1982, March-April 1983, Jan. 1986, May, 1988; summer 1990; India (mainly hanging around with Muslims in Lucknow and Delhi) Jan. 1982-Mar. 1983. In addition, I have visited for periods between a few days and a month some of the same countries plus the following countries: Iran, Syria, Turkey, Yemen, Bahrain, Qatar, Morocco, Tunisia, Senegal, Gambia, Bangladesh, Uzbekistan,and Israel. I have never attempted to hide my lack of experience in Iraq. But I've lived all around it and hung out with expatriates in Dearborn, and have done a lot of work on its history. It is sort of like an English-speaking German academic--who lived years in Kentucky, returned to Munich, and wrote a book about Tennessee--being criticized by a French journalist who knows no English and little American history but once spent two weeks in Memphis.

Please note the bold text. He has never actually been in Iraq. I await your concession of your position and admit I was indeed correct.

I'm willing to bet that you haven't been there either.

You are correct. However, my knowledge of whats going on over there comes from my job. Being in the military, I have personally screened over 4000 troops that have served in Iraq and Afghanistan. Considering there is no "middle man" between me and them describing their first hand knowledge, I think I know a little about whats going on there as well.

EDIT: @Little Raven: classic, well done!

Seems you celebrate a little too early as well. Hint: It actually pays to read what you link.

 

[Little Raven]

Please note the bold text. He has never actually been in Iraq. I await your concession of your position and admit I was indeed correct.

*chuckle* Mea culpa, then.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Please note the bold text. He has never actually been in Iraq. I await your concession of your position and admit I was indeed correct.

mobboss is indead correct.
A pity he dosnt hold the commander in chief to such standards.

 

[MobBoss]

mobboss is indead correct.
A pity he dosnt hold the commander in chief to such standards.

You show me incontrivertible evidence like I found here and I will encourage the impeachment of Bush in a heartbeat.

However, most of the current issues revolving him, like the wiretaps, are going to be argued endlessly over whether he actually had power to do this or not. Until it becomes absolutely clear that he did not, I will give him the benefit of doubt.

Hell, I gave Clinton the benefit of doubt, until a dress with his DNA on it showed up. Thats precisely the type of evidence I am looking for here.

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

He has never actually been in Iraq.

I don't think this matters. I'm impressed with his extensive visits to the region, especially if he is well connected with the expats in Dearborn. Having family near there, I was surprised at the additional incite I was given talking to some of them AFTER I returned from the region. Wish I'd talked to them before I went.

 

[BasketCase]

As testimony from the original post in the following thread demonstrates....

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=147612

....people who HAVE been to Iraq are giving widely varying accounts of what's really going on over there. When the people who have actually been there disagree on what's going on, then the testimony of those who haven't been there can be much more easily discounted (not discounted with certainty, but it is much less reliable).

So, most folks in CFC will simply go on believing whatever they want to believe, because there's plenty of evidence to back up both sides. Me, I'm an exception--I don't know if things are going well or ill over there, but I think destroying dictatorships is a good thing no matter what. That a dictatorship was destroyed, is one of the few things that are known to be 100% fact about Iraq at the moment.

 

[Neomega]

By now, anyone joining the militray is pro-Bush conservative. People who do not like what we have done to Iraq are not joining the military, so military personnel will give a slanted view, not to mention it's their job to follow orders from the commander in chief. But from many people I have talked to who came back, it was a walk in the park and boring. From others, they went in hungry for conflict, left disillusioned with America, to quote one former marine ex-coworker who served mostly in Al-Kut:

"Iraq was the most Westernized nation in the middle east... I went in all pumped up, like yeah, gonna go kick some ass.... I felt sorry for the Iraqis, they were really nice people, the Kuwaitis were *******s."

another former marine stationed in Bagdady, I believe:

"..I'd say about 2/3 of the Marines did not want to be there..."

=====================================

The poll numbers are strongly supported by the left-leaning knee jerk British Ministry of Defense:



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...ml&sSheet=/portal/2005/10/23/ixportaltop.html

The writer is correct. 2200 dead and 15000 wounded over the period of 3 years could be sustained by the US military forever. The insurgents are not beating us. What they are doing, however, is making Iraq's method of paying the united States back for their "liberation" more difficult, by keeping oil production below pre-war, UN sanctioned levels.

Paul Bremer did not expect the insurgency, (obviously, neither did most neocons, talking of "flowers and candy")

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N06261100.htm

Civil war is on the way, and the kurds want it, because they want a homeland.

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/nation/13504148.htm

The fact is, the neocons were overly optimistic, as you would expect of silver spoon fed billionaires who never knew real hardship. They thought Iraq would treat the killings of 10's of thousands of their civilians lightly. They thought that all Arabs respect is power, (I heard many of them say it dozens of times on cable news, different neocon, same B.S.).

Now America gets to pay for decades for their glib childish worldviews. Every country in the world is brewing anti-american sentiment, with all of South America pretty much swinging strognly to the communist left, in repudiation of America.

To sum it up. Dick Cheney is an idiot, and George Bush is his puppet that gets all the heat.

 

[MobBoss]

By now, anyone joining the militray is pro-Bush conservative.

I would say this is a false assumption on your part. Young men and women will join the military regardless of their political views because it is a valid opportunity for them to better themselves.

The military offers young people out of high school a job, money for college and technical training in a host of fields. Not everyone joining need be an infantry man you know.

 

[Whomp]

The fact is, the neocons were overly optimistic, as you would expect of silver spoon fed billionaires who never knew real hardship.

71% of Iraqis seeing a better life in the next year? Or 3/4 of Shi'ites and 97% of Kurds who felt it was worth it to oust Saddam? I guess the limousine liberals don't care about that.
I'm all for moving out at this point and let the democratic process continue.